"most successful production gun in IPSC"

[Beretta Lover]

Has anyone seen or heard the claim that the "CZ 75 series has won more IPSC championships than any other gun"?

Is this that new math?

I know CZ used to say something like "The CZ 75 is in use by more militaries than any other handgun".

How does this work? I've been in or around alot of militaries and none of these had them:

U.S.

German

Thai

Canadian

English

None of these dudes had CZ 75s

And I thought I saw more glocks out there than anything (other than Edges and Eagles) at all the USPSA matches I go to

Dont get me wrong CZ 75s are really groovey Im just askin

[RH45]

USPSA is just in the USA and IPSC is worldwide, so it wouldn't surprise me.

[VegasOPM]

Part of the deal with IPSC is the "5# inital trigger pull" rule- a tuned CZ may have a 9# inital trigger pull and a 2# follow up trigger pull. Whereas a Glock has to have a 5# pull for every trigger pull. Add the fact that IPSC allows loading mags to capacity. The CZ SP-01 carries 19 rds vs 17 for the Glock. Those are two reasons that I know of that CZs are more popular.

[Micah]

Part of the deal with IPSC is the "5# inital trigger pull" rule- a tuned CZ may have a 9# inital trigger pull and a 2# follow up trigger pull. Whereas a Glock has to have a 5# pull for every trigger pull. Add the fact that IPSC allows loading mags to capacity. The CZ SP-01 carries 19 rds vs 17 for the Glock. Those are two reasons that I know of that CZs are more popular.

Spot on answer.

In USPSA, things are quite different.

[robertbank]

Part of the deal with IPSC is the "5# inital trigger pull" rule- a tuned CZ may have a 9# inital trigger pull and a 2# follow up trigger pull. Whereas a Glock has to have a 5# pull for every trigger pull. Add the fact that IPSC allows loading mags to capacity. The CZ SP-01 carries 19 rds vs 17 for the Glock. Those are two reasons that I know of that CZs are more popular.

Spot on answer.

In USPSA, things are quite different.

Well not quite the right answer. IPSC Production is limited to 10 rds. The CZ SP-01 Shadow is an outstanding pistol and has been in the hands of the IPSC World Champion for the past two years. In addition the CZ Team won the team honours at the Worlds this year and I believe at the last as well. The CZ's do quite well in Open Division as well though up here the STI's rule.

We see some Glocks in Production but lately more M&P 9MM guns along with the CZ's.

Take Care

Bob

[VegasOPM]

Well not quite the right answer. IPSC Production is limited to 10 rds.

Maybe in Canada, but here are the rules for Production division off the IPSC.org website.

1 Minimum power factor for Major Not applicable

2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354”) / 19mm (0.748")

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major Not applicable

6 Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) 2.27 kg (5lbs) for first shot

7 Maximum handgun size Maximum barrel length 127mm (5”)

8 Maximum magazine length Yes, see below.

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No

10 Max. distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from torso 50mm

11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies Yes

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment Yes, see below.

13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No

14 Compensators permitted No

15 Ports permitted No

Only handguns approved and listed on the IPSC website may be used in Production Division.

Single-action-only handguns are prohibited. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.

Neither the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor any allied equipment (e.g. magazines or other loading devices), can extend forward of the line illustrated in Appendix F3. Any such items a Range Officer deems not to be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

Modifications to them, other than minor detailing, are prohibited. Prohibited modifications include changing the original color and/or finish of a handgun, and/or adding stripes or other embellishments.

Base plates and/or any other devices which provide additional ammunition capacity (e.g. "+2" magazine extensions), are prohibited.

Sights may be trimmed, adjusted and/or have sight black applied.

Aftermarket parts, components and accessories are prohibited, except as follows:

Aftermarket magazines which match the external dimensions of standard magazines offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted.

Aftermarket sights of the same type and kind offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun.

Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for the approved handgun and/or the application of tape on grips is permitted, however, rubber sleeves are prohibited.

A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.

[Micah]

Well not quite the right answer. IPSC Production is limited to 10 rds.

You are absolutely incorrect sir. IPSC Production is limited to as many rounds as can be placed inside an unmodified stock magazine.

[Micah]

...and I see Vegas has posted the rules. Thanks Vegas

[VegasOPM]

I had to look them up in anticipation of the Curacao Open in May. I'm glad I did since my 2.5# trigger job for USPSA Production would have dropped me in Open. Now I need to practice with the stock Glock trigger for a while- or at least find some combination that is 5.1# and practice with it

[DVC247]

Slight segue here--I see from the IPSC rules you can't cock the hammer before the first shot, but I don't think that's true for USPSA. At the last Nationals, on the standards, one of the CZ shooters on my squad asked if he could and was told yes (for some reason he didn't want to do a left handed double action pull on a par time 40-yard target....hunh)

[Viggen]

Slight segue here--I see from the IPSC rules you can't cock the hammer before the first shot, but I don't think that's true for USPSA. At the last Nationals, on the standards, one of the CZ shooters on my squad asked if he could and was told yes (for some reason he didn't want to do a left handed double action pull on a par time 40-yard target....hunh)

Surprising that an RO at the USPSA Nationals would make a mistake like that.

[Chuck Anderson]

Slight segue here--I see from the IPSC rules you can't cock the hammer before the first shot, but I don't think that's true for USPSA. At the last Nationals, on the standards, one of the CZ shooters on my squad asked if he could and was told yes (for some reason he didn't want to do a left handed double action pull on a par time 40-yard target....hunh)

Surprising that an RO at the USPSA Nationals would make a mistake like that.

Near as I can tell he didn't. US rules say hammer down at start signal. IPSC rules say first shot has to be fired DA. There's a big difference. Last I heard was it was legal in USPSA to cock a DA gun before firing the first shot. But I've been wrong before (the year was 2001, it was a cold and rainy day and... JK)

[Xfactor]

Slight segue here--I see from the IPSC rules you can't cock the hammer before the first shot, but I don't think that's true for USPSA. At the last Nationals, on the standards, one of the CZ shooters on my squad asked if he could and was told yes (for some reason he didn't want to do a left handed double action pull on a par time 40-yard target....hunh)

Surprising that an RO at the USPSA Nationals would make a mistake like that.

Near as I can tell he didn't. US rules say hammer down at start signal. IPSC rules say first shot has to be fired DA. There's a big difference. Last I heard was it was legal in USPSA to cock a DA gun before firing the first shot. But I've been wrong before (the year was 2001, it was a cold and rainy day and... JK)

That is my understanding as well... in USPSA, you can draw and cock the hammer if you so desire.

[DVC247]

IPSC rules make me shake my head nearly as much as IDPA--If the first shot period has to be double action, when it comes to unloaded starts, I don't see how an RO could see well enough to determine if a shooter, after sticking a mag in and racking a round while charging to a new position, has decocked before firing the first shot.

[ChuckS]

IPSC rules make me shake my head nearly as much as IDPA--If the first shot period has to be double action, when it comes to unloaded starts, I don't see how an RO could see well enough to determine if a shooter, after sticking a mag in and racking a round while charging to a new position, has decocked before firing the first shot.

The RO doesn't have to. From the January 2009 IPSC rules, Appendix D4 Special Condition 17:

"17. Handguns deemed by IPSC to be single-action-only are prohibited. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance

of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded

chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed

in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action."

Later,

Chuck

Edited April 25, 2009 by ChuckS

[NOSAJ19]

Unloaded starts are a different animal. Draw gun, load mag, rack slide, bang, bang. No de-cocking required, in any IPSC Division.

Cheers, Ando.

Edited April 25, 2009 by NOSAJ19

[1SOW]

In USPSA production it says hammer "must be fully down at the start signal". This prevents starting at the half-cock, which gives a shorter & lighter pull There isn't a statement that says the first shot MUST be DA, so as far as I can tell, you could cock the hammer after the 'beep'. On some stages this might cost time.

On the 'most military use': The CZForum had a thread on this claim and did list military users that were mostly European countries, and there used to be a fair amount of European countries who's cops used CZ also. Someone may have lumped these all together.

Edited April 27, 2009 by 1SOW

[NOSAJ19]

Just crack you first DA shot off at you fist target, hit or miss, then follow up with an aimed SA shot. Got to be faster than cocking & firing. Or buy a Glock/M&P/XD etc. Or lean to shoot.

[Shay1911]

Most people who get used to the CZ can stage the first shot. Like a good revolver, they can pull all the way through in a smooth double action or pull half way to the single action and then break off the shot. When they draw the gun, they are pulling the trigger on the way to the first target so when they are on the target they are already on single action only. A bit of practice and the double action first shot is no big deal.

The single action that is left over is very nice. It is a hammer and a sear and not a striker. I think that the two trigger systems do feel different, like the difference between a 1911 trigger and a Glock/M&P trigger, crisp vs. mushy.

Most people can't get used to the other part of the CZ trigger. It is a swing/pivot trigger with lots of pre-travel due to the double action mechanism. It does not land itself well to trigger slapping because of that. You have to find the reset point and ride it.

[Gary1911A1]

I guess it's all in how you define "most Successful". For me it's a Angus CZ Shadow, but for someone else it could be a Glock, although I don't understand myself I guess they do.

[1SOW]

I guess it's all in how you define "most Successful". For me it's a Angus CZ Shadow, but for someone else it could be a Glock, although I don't understand myself I guess they do.

The CZ's first DA pull can be made to be very smooth with a little trigger work and practice.

Off the thread a little: If I had an extra $1200 laying around I'd love to have a Shadow! Some of the Custom Shop FPS removals have been put back in to meet the latest USPSA rules. There was some talk about whether or not the Custom Shop Shadow met USPSA "Production" requirements---I don't know.