Which Ak-47?

[Bucky]

I am looking to purchase an AK-47 to play with in some three gun, tactical, and well just to have one. Which country makes the best AK at a reasonable price. Although I'd love a Valment cost is too much and I'm really looking for the "traditional" AK. I notice there are a lot of Romanian versions available, but I understand not to get one pre 2000 and to make sure the gas block lines up. A see a few Hungarian models available and some Russian ones. My though was that the Russian models may be the better models, but I was also considering be nostalgic and getting wood hardware. Most the Russian models seem to have plastic these days. What about Egyptian models? I head rumor that they are built well.

Anything else I should look out for??

TIA!

[TBF]

Bucky,

I'm not really an authority on AK's, but my .o2.

I really like my Bulgarian milled rec., Kalishnikov USA is selling the same rifle as Bulgarian.

Robinson armament is importing VEPR, an RPK reciever based rifle that is supposed to be really nice, but have not seen one.

Travis F.

[rhino]

You had to go and throw "reasonable cost" in there! Without that, the answer is much easier: Valmet or Galil.

[PacMan]

Well, KellyN didn't call Colorado "the fayjadeen (sp?) hotbed" for nothing , a bunch of us 3 gunners here play with the AK47s and 74s quite abit in our matches. A mix bag of Bulgarian SLR95s, Hungarian parts in new receivers, Krebs, and Arsenal Polish AKMs. If price is a concern, the Romanian AKs are the cheapest at $270 or so, but quite honestly, they are the ugliest! Next in line are the new Russian ones.

The best ones are probably the original thumbhole stock Bulgarian SLR95s, with enough US made parts, you can get rid of that stock. Arsenal USA is remaking these in the US, and they are about $600 from FAC. Also, I am not sure about this, but the most expensive AK is probably the US built Krebs.

[Bear1142]

Bucky,

I've got a Krebs custom 47 and its outstanding. They are a bit pricey, but the look and workmanship is excellent. Check out his website. I would also check out the website AK-103.com, I forget the name, but they manufacuture AK's on par with Krebs at a slightly lower price. I would stay away from the milled versions, the are unneccesarily heavy. The stamped receivers hold up just fine.

Erik

[PacMan]

"I would stay away from the milled versions, the are unneccesarily heavy.  The stamped receivers hold up just fine."

I'd beg the difference. The milled receiver is the most sought after for its appearance, and to some, a perception of durability. Yes, it adds a little more weight, but it does help soften some of the recoil. I would recommend that if you find one in your price range, take it and not worry about whether the receiver is milled or stamped.

One more item, definitely don't get one with a slant brake. These things are horrible! You better off shooting the AK without any brake than with the slant one.

[rhino]

One more item, definitely don't get one with a slant brake. These things are horrible! You better off shooting the AK without any brake than with the slant one.

Any specific reasons?

[blkbrd]

As for AK's the Bulgarian milled reciever guns from Arsenal USA are nice if you want an AK.

The Vepr is a nice gun but its not as traditional an AK more of an AK-AKM-Galil mix.

Krebs Custom makes top notch AK's, they are the JP of the AK world.

The cost of the "overrated" Valmet and Galil rifles is through the roof.

The Romanian stuff is fun to shoot and will go bang, for the price they are fun.

For competition a brake will help shot to shot recovery, for fun they are just plain loud. Slant breaks are not that bad but the AK style brake is rude, the louder it is the better its working though.

I have to say it though "flame on" if you want a quality rifle for competition don't waste your money on an AK! Just buy an AR, they dominate 3-gun matches for a reason.

[PacMan]

The slant brake somehow produces more perceived recoil than no muzzle brake. We shot 3 AKs with slant brake, and all 3 produced weird sideway and shoving recoiling effects, changed 2 of them out the more effective AK74 style "big boom" brake and they are much more pleasant to shoot. The third one is one its way to the surgical bench.

Yes, we are just playing with these things. For real, we all pull out our mouse guns (or for some, mouse guns on steroid, ala 308).

[Correia]

I use a Vepr in 3 gun a lot. It is a very nice rifle. A little heavy, but that is a good thing for what we are doing.

With the addition of a set of Kreb's A2 style rear sight, and the Vepr can hang in there really well.

[Carlos]

If its for 3 gun, then I have to agree w/ Bear1142: Erik is an authority on 3 gun & he can tell you weight is everything in that game. A heavy gun (AKA a milled AK) will be harder to stop on each target. As for perceived recoil, it does not matter unless it lowers final point total/hit factor. Besides, a good Limited Division brake should keep recoil in check - I would not use receiver weight to conteract recoil. Unless someone can show us evidence that a milled receiver produces an inherently more accurate AK or that it will lower splits/ improve hit factor, then Bear1142's advice is sound.

Erik: you had an AR built in 221 Ghengis/5.45x39mm. How did that work for 3gun? I noticed it for sale some time back if thats an indication. If that round works, then what about the AK-74 vs. the AK-47? Since 5.45mm seems to be a factory-loaded round only game (for practical/cost purposes) what did you think of the round? Would it meet minor out of the 16" tubes common to AKs? Regards, C.

[kellyn]

While I could care less about which AK the fedayeen favor, I disagree with the comment about heavy rifles. I've done very well with some heavy rifles. It's a personal preference issue. For me, heavy rifles "glide" from target to target and aren't as "herky-jerky."

Colorado is a little hotbed of AK shooters. We have some here in AZ and I have to say I've seen some good close range shooting with AKs but at long range they fall short. Plus you look like a VC-fedayeen-spetnatz terrorist sympathizer

I love PacMan's comment about the "ugliest" Ak. Aren't they all?

[PacMan]

Yes kellyn, for something to play around with, the uglier, the better. It gives all the leftist-clintonista-gun-grabbers goosebumps, specially with that 75-round drum protruding out from the bottom. (By the way, I wouldn't be here if I was a VC-sympathizer. I hate those SOBs )

[Bear1142]

I agree with Kellyn that personal preference is going to dictate an individuals setup. As stated in other topics and I appreciate I'm in the minority compared to all the other top dogs, I prefer the 16" barrels to 20" ones (limited) for all the reasons people like light or heavy limited pistols. I find the vast majority of our rifle stages are 100 yds. and closer with many stages being 25 yards or less. Look at this years Nationals. 1 long range stage, 3 close range stages with 2 of them having the furthest shot being about 20 yards. The 2 close-in ones involved many windows, ports, and corners to negotiate. A smaller, lighter rifle manuvers easier. Once again, this is personal preference. Todd S. pushed that big, heavy AR-10 around pretty fast, but I'm betting he could have gone even faster with lighter set-up, but I wouldn't presume to speak for TGO(3 gun ). The last stage was the standards. I don't consider the standards to be a "real" stage. Don't get me wrong, the are usually very difficult, but they are more skills intensive and don't have very much movement or stategy to them.

Kellyn is again correct that the AK's don't have the reach of an AR, Although in all fairness, they were never designed to. Soviet Military doctrine at the time of the developement of the AK emphasized massed area fire, not individual targets, with a maximum engagement range of 300 meters. It wasn't a 1 on 1, let's see who's more accurate. It was, my 10 guys are all going to fire a whole lot in your direction as we charge. Eventually somebody will hit you, but I digress. Most of the modern AK's inaccuracy is due to ammo. Good, modern AK's can display some surprising accuracy, but you'll have to work a lot harder than the AR guys to get it.

Carlos,

Yes I did have the Ghengis for a while, but eventually sold it. 2 main reasons. First and most importantly, Mig brought it to my attention (after he encouraged me to get it ), that the 5.45 round is not legal in USPSA. 3 guns rules state a minimum caliber of .22, but is commonly interpreted to be .224. The 5.45x39 is actually a .221. I think you'd have to get a ruling from Amidon before it's used. Secondly, I could only get the mags to feed reliably with 27 rounds. I could get 29 in some, but then reliability was an issue. As you can imagine, you can't give up 3 rounds to everyone else. Not to mention 13 rds, if they're using 40 rd. mags. As with other 16" barrels, you have to check your ammo. Some ammo will not make minor. There was some 68gr. ammo around for a while that made it comfortably, but I haven't seen that in a while. Despite these issues, I did like the round. Its got better ballistics over 55gr. 223 loads and shoots softer. I was really surprised at just how soft it was out of the AR and a comp would make it a dream. For USPSA, there's no real advantage to using the 47. You can't make major and theres more recoil to deal with. Out past 200 yards, the 47 has a rainbow trajectory that makes it very impractical to use. Stay with the 74.

Erik

[Bucky]

Just wanted to say I appreciate everyone's input on this so far. Great info. Just for the record, I have an EGW build AR with a 18"ish bull barrel (20" including comp). For serious 3 gunning, I would use it. The mystique of the AK having grown up during the '80s (cold war), plus the reliability track record seems to be unchallenged by even our beloved 1911. Not to mention the fact that up until I moved a few weeks ago, I couldn't legally own one.

One of the biggest disadvantages with AKs seem to be the short sight radius due to the mounting of the sight forward of the receiver. While the Valmet and Galil have fixed this, it is odd that looking at the custom variation, such as Krebbs, that they have not choose to mount the rear sight more... rearward. Also, when speaking of the 5.45, it is something I never considered - not making minor. Still I am more likely to go with 7.69x39.

Sometimes it's just plain fun to play, and not worry 'bout the competitive factor. This past Sunday I shot limited minor with my Beretta 'cause I wanted to play with some 18 round Beretta magazines I had. (My STI .40 was pissed at me.) Shooting an AK while owning a tricked AR would fit with the same mentality.

[Tokarev]

I had the guys at the Firing Line in Oklahoma build me a rifle a few years ago on one of their US milled receivers. It turned out very well and has about the smoothest action I've ever felt on a semi-auto rifle. If you want a gun of good quality, you could always get a Polish kit from Global and have it built on a Firing Line receiver. I think they charged me $200 or so for the work. And I think Centerfire Systems still has Chinese threaded barrel kits for $100.