Fte @ Open Nats Stage 8

[reneet]

I want some other shooters opinions on this scenario which happened to me last week in Bend. 2nd port on stage 8. There were 3 targets in the port, I fired 5 rounds. I did not shoot at one of the targets and received an FTE along with my 2 misses. I called the RM and argued that I fired necessary amount of rounds through the port to have engaged all targets but penalty was still applied.

Was the penalty properly applied or could I have won my argument?

[ErikW]

It's up to the R.O. to determine whether you engaged the target. If he or she has any doubt or question, you shouldn't get the procedural. There should be some doubt on port-in-wall stages where the ROs can't see what you're shooting at.

ShooterGrrl's husband lost his arbitration at the 99 LimNats with this very situation and argument.

[BDH]

Reneet,

Regardless of the number of rounds fired, you MUST engage each of the targets or you get an FTE. I had similar situations at both the 3 Gun Nats, and the Ltd Nats this year (CRO for both). As Erik said, the issue is that the range staff has to be sure that you did not engage a target before giving the FTE. If we are not 100% sure, then we assume that the extra shots went toward the target and you just get the Mike's (I would cite the rule, but don't have a rulebook at my desk). The issue is always 'how can we be 100% sure' and generally what happens is that we try to position an RO at such a location that they can clearly see what is/is not being engaged. From what you described, the correct call was made. Hope this helps....

[Loves2Shoot]

Renee,

The limited match or the open match? Did he give you a failure on the drop turner? If he gave you a failure on the drop turner I would have faught it. On the static or swinger I wouldn't risk $100.

I would agree with Erik about not knowing what you were shooting at except you could see through the walls.

[hoser]

Reneet,

Regardless of the number of rounds fired, you MUST engage each of the targets or you get an FTE. I had similar situations at both the 3 Gun Nats, and the Ltd Nats this year (CRO for both). As Erik said, the issue is that the range staff has to be sure that you did not engage a target before giving the FTE. If we are not 100% sure, then we assume that the extra shots went toward the target and you just get the Mike's (I would cite the rule, but don't have a rulebook at my desk). The issue is always 'how can we be 100% sure' and generally what happens is that we try to position an RO at such a location that they can clearly see what is/is not being engaged. From what you described, the correct call was made. Hope this helps....

[hoser]

OOPS!!

Sorry folks, I was trying to put that box around the quote and goofed up. Anyway, Brian, you don't have your rule book at work!!?? For shame!

Renee, if the RO is positive that you did not engage a target with at least one round and it is not a disappearing target, you will receive an FTE no matter how many rounds you fired at the other targets. See 9.5.9

Arnie (who keeps a rulebook at work)

[Flexmoney]

Arnie...don't let BDH fool ya. We had an Ohio Section meeting recently...BDH was able to produce the rulebook faster than Phil Strader can knock down 3 poppers!

Kyle

[John Heiter]

Maybe I'm missing something but in my opinion if you know you didn't engage one of the targets and the RO gives you an FTE for it then it shouldn't matter if the RO was wearing a blindfold at the time, and arguing it to any level is wrong. You may have been able to win your arguement, but I'm not sure how you could have done that without lying.

John

[Flexmoney]

Sometime the shooter can get pretty mixed up...especially in a complicated memory stage, with lots of targets. (shooter might not know if the failed to engage a target or not)

The question to pose to the RO is..."how do you KNOW I didn't engage that target".

Ports, window and slots make it tough. Usually, the RO will able to tell, though.

[Jon Merricks]

Just curious, How many hits did you have on the other two targets? Or would that even matter to an RO.

[BDH]

Sorry folks, I was trying to put that box around the quote and goofed up.

Arnie, that is what the 'Preview Post' button is for!

Maybe I'm missing something but in my opinion if you know you didn't engage one of the targets and the RO gives you an FTE for it then it shouldn't matter if the RO was wearing a blindfold at the time, and arguing it to any level is wrong. You may have been able to win your arguement, but I'm not sure how you could have done that without lying.

In a perfect world I fully agree. Unfortunately, I have had people admit that they did not shoot at a target, and still argue that I could not give them an FTE because they put more than enough rounds downrange to have engaged it.

How many hits did you have on the other two targets? Or would that even matter to an RO.

Jon, I know your question is directed to Reneet. However, the answer remains the same..... if he did not engage the target, the FTE gets applied regardless of how many shots hit the other targets.

[Vince Pinto]

Reneet,

In your opening post you confessed to failing to shoot at one of the targets, so I don't understand why you would subsequently challenge the imposition of the applicable penalty. The RO can only apply the penalty for one of two reasons:

1. Because you confessed or

2. Because he personally saw that you failed to shoot at the subject target.

In either case, he was correct to give you the penalty.

Brian,

You don't have a rulebook at work ???? Sorry dude, but that's 3 demerit points on your Jedi training.

[BDH]

Brian,

You don't have a rulebook at work ????  Sorry dude, but that's 3 demerit points on your Jedi training.

Sorry Darth, part of the reason I disappeared from here for a couple of months was that work has been really tough. Visiting the forum or digging into a rulebook was just a distraction from work (pleasant distraction, but still a distraction). Anyway, it seems that we are over the hump now, so I will work hard to earn back my three demerits, and return to the ranks of being a 'good Jedi'...

[JMD]

I’ll ‘fess up. I was the RO and there was no question. In fact we had several FTEs during the Open match.

During scoring I called the target and while turning to face the shooter to reply to the 5 shot question – the assistant RO/scorekeeper stated that he too noted that the competitor simply did not shoot at the target.

I can assure you no one working that stage was looking to penalize anyone. We had our hands full with 3 activating boxes, 2 drop turners, 4 swingers and 2 poppers… in a 24 round stage.

Joel

[BDH]

I’ll ‘fess up.

Joel, saying that you would 'fess up' almost sounds like you are afraid to come forward. There is nothing to worry about on this. Again, if the shooter shot at the target and missed, he (she) gets the misses. If the shooter did NOT shoot at the target, he (she) gets the misses, and the FTE. Simple as that (I know, nothing is ever simple, but you made the correct call, period). Personally, I don't believe that ANY good RO is looking to 'penalize' someone. However, if a shooter 'earns' himself (herself) the penalty, then a good RO will apply it.....

[JMD]

Brian: No problem coming forward or joining in but trying to keep it “light”.

There is still the perception that some ROs are looking to apply penalties or that we have an “us vs. them” mindset.

This forum (thanks B.E.) allows discussion and the exchange of ideas in a constructive – respectful format. My hats off to those of you who are active and contribute.

Excuse the drift but wanted to get in a general thank you!

Joel

[BDH]

There is still the perception that some ROs are looking to apply penalties or that we have an “us vs. them” mindset.

Understood, and it is hard to get past that. I suppose that it is the same in other amateur, as well as professional sports. The 'ref' makes the call he saw, and makes it according to the rules as he understands them. Often, the player didn't see it the same way and views it as the ref was out to screw him. I think it is kind of the nature of the beast.

All we can do is continue to try to apply the rules according to the rulebook, and to be fair across all the shooters. Also, we have to realize that there will be disputes, and that is really what the CRO's, the RM's, and the Arb committee are for.

[LPatterson]

I too had to give some shooters a FTE during the Limited when they picked up the gun and engaged the straight away visible targets then moved to the side to engage the swingers but didn't transition back to the targets at the back which were only visible from the corners of the shooting area. Since my focus was on the gun I could see the transition from target area to target area and could explain to the shooter that I did not see a transition to a target. Our stage did not have a single complaint about FTE's. In the Open after the transition to swingers as the back targets we did not have any problems with FTE because you could see the targets moving through the mesh and it was eye catching enough to pull your attention to them. Though we did have a few OOPS that had shooters back up after taking a step too far.