Carmoney Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 why is the near and far standards weighted so heavily?? its one stage out of many. i dont understand how it can make such a difference in your score. if you shoot bad at any one stage it will hurt your score. why is this stage different?? Good question. If you look at the results for the other stages, the top shooters tend to be all bunched up together, with only a second or two difference between all the top contenders (and perhaps even less). On the Far & Near Standards, you have top shooters scoring 11 or 12 seconds, and other top shooters scoring 20 or 24 or 32 or 37..... The differential is much, much wider. Part of it is the instrinsic difficulty of the stage, but an equally big part of it is the "groove factor" I keep harping on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Instead of just setting up one stage and shooting the goddam thing over and over? I take it your not a fan of the Steel Challenge or Bianchi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revoman Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Wouldn't it be better if you didn't know exactly what the stage would be like, and instead of grooving in one particular thing, you were forced to become generally proficient at getting good fast hits at all practical distances, achieving fast and consistent reloads on demand, shooting strong/weak-hand-only when necessary, shooting on the move, and all the other general shooting skills it takes to become the best possible all-around revolver shooter you can be? Instead of just setting up one stage and shooting the goddam thing over and over? Lets see, 50 yds, draw, go prone, 6 rounds, 6 targets and 6 x's under 9 seconds. 25 yds, draw, 6 rounds, 6 targets, 6 x's under 7 seconds. 12 yds, draw, 6 rounds, 3 targets, reload, 6 rounds, 3 targets 12 x's under 10 seconds. 3 yds, draw, 6 rounds, 3 targets, strong hand only, reload, 6 rounds, 3 targets, weak hand only, 12 x's under 10 seconds. This cover good fast hits at all practical distances. (50yds, 25yds, 12yds, 3yds and all x's) Achieving fast and consistent reloads on demand, I think the following covers that (6 rounds reload 6 rounds at 12 yds and 3 yds under 10 seconds and all x's) and last but not least 12 rounds strong hand and weak hand at 3 yds under 10 seconds and all x's. The only thing not covered is shooting on the move and I can practice that during my dry fire time. The other general skills I try to pick up during local matches. I achieve all the above by setting up one stage during my practice session and shooting the (lets not take god's name in vain after all it is Easter)dam thing over and over again and to my standards I have become the best revolver shooter I want to be. Well if next weekend allows, it will be back off to the range to practice the F&N standards and this time I will practice a little harder knowing that I am practicing fast good hits at all practical distances, achieving fast and consistent reloads on demand and shooting strong and weak hand. I might even take a few rounds and run around while I shoot at targets and if I have time I will work on some of my other general shooting skills. Lord knows I need help there. Keep them in the X-Ring Revoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Instead of just setting up one stage and shooting the goddam thing over and over? I take it your not a fan of the Steel Challenge or Bianchi As I've mentioned many times previously, I'm really not a huge fan of any match that allows you to set up and practice the exact stages ahead of time. It just feels unfair to me--some will be able to do it, and some won't, for a whole variety of different reasons. Eventually, it takes its toll on the integrity of the competition. I realize all of this probably sounds weird to those who remember me from back in the day when I was a very serious bowling pin shooter--I think we could all agree that pin shooting is the ultimate "get in the groove" handgun shooting game! The groove part of the F&N Standards is all about the timing. Any top-level revolver shooter can shoot one-handed, knows where his gun shoots at 50 yards, and is capable of getting good hits at any practical handgun range. Since it was always a par-time stage, if you're a good shooter the thing you really have to practice a lot is getting the timing down exactly right. And that only happens through lots of repetition. Those who get in the timing groove have a big advantage over those who don't have the opportunity. Just like those who show up several days ahead of time and shoot the exact stages on the practice bays at Steel Challenge will have a big advantage over those who can't, and the specialists who have their own Bianchi Cup practice stages set up out back are going to be the winners in that game. Boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.carden Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) http://icore.org/archive/2008/MidWestRegio...esults2008.html The link to last years Midwest Reg..........Look at the column with Stage3. Scroll down to see the stage winner of the "par-time standards" stage (in red). I believe it was....?????????? And if I recall, there was a little "in your face" with the score sheet after it was shot....... You need a bigger shovel here Mike..!!!!!!!!......What ya think..!!!!!! DanBagger Edited April 13, 2009 by D.carden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I believe it was....?????????? Yeah, at that particular match, I would agree that the standards stage was in fact the best overall test of shooting ability, and a far better skill indicator than the overall results....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Shooter Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 LOL...... Sometimes you just got to laugh........Note that Revoman and I both sucked at that stage............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 LOL...... Sometimes you just got to laugh........Note that Revoman and I both sucked at that stage............... Hey, don't leave me out of this sucked too!......wait thats not a good thing ....nevermind.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revoman Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 LOL...... Sometimes you just got to laugh........Note that Revoman and I both sucked at that stage............... That is why I am going to practice as I no longer want to suck but to rise above and conquer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 LOL...... Sometimes you just got to laugh........Note that Revoman and I both sucked at that stage............... That is why I am going to practice as I no longer want to suck but to rise above and conquer. I thought it was "Adapt and overcome" Wait wrong movie (Clint Eastwood, Heatbreak Ridge) soooorrrrryyyy rdd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 OK. let me get this straight. I'm trying to understand the non FN, non practice, non-groove side of this thread. If somebody sucks at a particular stage at a particular match then the stage is the problem and needs to be changed so that the somebody can finish higher on the list even if they don't want to practice. If somebody does well at a particular stage, one of those practicable/groove-in stages and has had time/money/inclination to practice whether they practiced or not, then " the standards stage was in fact the best overall test of shooting ability, and a far better skill indicator than the overall results". I'm going to have to chalk most of this stuff up to an overflow of lawyer speak and weasel words - remember with the law there is no right or wrong, only the whining and winning matters. And sometimes a win comes by just talking long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Viggen, apparently you did not figure out that my last post (post #56) was me just kidding around. Dan was taking a friendly poke at me, and I responded in kind, that's all. I made sure to add the smiley faces in there so everybody would understand, but I guess you missed that. As for the second paragraph of your post, I think it's really unfortunate that instead of participating in this interesting and entirely civil debate, you would decide to make it personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Viggen, apparently you did not figure out that my last post (post #56) was me just kidding around. Dan was taking a friendly poke at me, and I responded in kind, that's all. I made sure to add the smiley faces in there so everybody would understand, but I guess you missed that. As for the second paragraph of your post, I think it's really unfortunate that instead of participating in this interesting and entirely civil debate, you would decide to make it personal. I guess I missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Shooter Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 LOL...... Sometimes you just got to laugh........Note that Revoman and I both sucked at that stage............... Hey, don't leave me out of this sucked too!......wait thats not a good thing ....nevermind.. On further inspection....you are correct....you did really suck .....actually everyone except for Mike and John really sucked...... We should be able to retrospectively toss that stage out of the match....Oh, hang on, maybe not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 LOL...... Sometimes you just got to laugh........Note that Revoman and I both sucked at that stage............... Hey, don't leave me out of this sucked too!......wait thats not a good thing ....nevermind.. On further inspection....you are correct....you did really suck .....actually everyone except for Mike and John really sucked...... We should be able to retrospectively toss that stage out of the match....Oh, hang on, maybe not... Hey, I vote we toss Stage 7 instead!* I can't remember what the stage instructions were--something about a drawer or cupboard maybe?--I just know Mike L. was shaking his head when I was unloading and showing clear.....not a good sign. Anyway, I did something wrong and racked up 55 or 60 seconds worth of procedurals for not following the instructions. Ouch--talk about a match killer! Unfortunately, ICORE's time-plus scoring system is extremely unforgiving to that sort of thing--bomb one stage and your whole match is screwed. Oh, well..... *I'm only kidding here, Viggen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.carden Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Mike, That could've been a strong hand/weak hand thing..........For you maybe an all "freestyle" (major penalties thing) .....................I cant quit laughing just thinking about that. Mike L looking at you like a monkey with a gun..!!!!! Sorry man, but it fit the moment here.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffwalsh Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Viggen, apparently you did not figure out that my last post (post #56) was me just kidding around. Dan was taking a friendly poke at me, and I responded in kind, that's all. I made sure to add the smiley faces in there so everybody would understand, but I guess you missed that. As for the second paragraph of your post, I think it's really unfortunate that instead of participating in this interesting and entirely civil debate, you would decide to make it personal. I agree with Mike. Maybe you are in the wrong forum, you sound a lot like an IDPA shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Mike,That could've been a strong hand/weak hand thing..........For you maybe an all "freestyle" (major penalties thing) .....................I cant quit laughing just thinking about that. Mike L looking at you like a monkey with a gun..!!!!! Sorry man, but it fit the moment here.................... That was close but I believe it was more like...... Stage 7 Counter Encounter. Simple straight forward two string stage. Gun loaded and placed in a drawer. Self start, retrieve revo and engage the three targets with two hits each freestyle. String two retrieve revo and place one hit each strong hand and switch to weak hand and place one hit on each target weakhand. Mike Carmoney wuz a blaze of action. Placed two hits on each target freesyle in just over four seconds. String two “Buzzz.. bang, bang, bang, bang bang, bang, reload, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, he then stops after his eleventh shot of a six shot string. He turns to Mike the RO and asks “What was I doing?” Mike replies “ I was sorta hoping that you would tell me.” Oh yea a shots limited stage sorta gives new meaning to the phrase, “CARMONZED” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Mike,That could've been a strong hand/weak hand thing..........For you maybe an all "freestyle" (major penalties thing) .....................I cant quit laughing just thinking about that. Mike L looking at you like a monkey with a gun..!!!!! Sorry man, but it fit the moment here.................... That was close but I believe it was more like...... Stage 7 Counter Encounter. Simple straight forward two string stage. Gun loaded and placed in a drawer. Self start, retrieve revo and engage the three targets with two hits each freestyle. String two retrieve revo and place one hit each strong hand and switch to weak hand and place one hit on each target weakhand. Mike Carmoney wuz a blaze of action. Placed two hits on each target freesyle in just over four seconds. String two “Buzzz.. bang, bang, bang, bang bang, bang, reload, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, he then stops after his eleventh shot of a six shot string. He turns to Mike the RO and asks “What was I doing?” Mike replies “ I was sorta hoping that you would tell me.” Oh yea a shots limited stage sorta gives new meaning to the phrase, “CARMONZED” Yes, now I remember. I did a lot more whining than winning on that stage, that's for sure!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Seems to me you just shouldn't publish the stages before the match. Everybody goes in and shoots it "cold" . Given two shooters of basically equal ability/skill, if one has the means to practice a given stage for a month and the other doesn't, guess who's gonna (very probably) win? Is that a fair test of ability? Seems the far and near standards would make a good side match but how many would sign up to shoot it as a side match? It's doesn't seem like a good spectator event which is usually a prerequisite for good side matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Mike,That could've been a strong hand/weak hand thing..........For you maybe an all "freestyle" (major penalties thing) .....................I cant quit laughing just thinking about that. Mike L looking at you like a monkey with a gun..!!!!! Sorry man, but it fit the moment here.................... That was close but I believe it was more like...... Stage 7 Counter Encounter. Simple straight forward two string stage. Gun loaded and placed in a drawer. Self start, retrieve revo and engage the three targets with two hits each freestyle. String two retrieve revo and place one hit each strong hand and switch to weak hand and place one hit on each target weakhand. Mike Carmoney wuz a blaze of action. Placed two hits on each target freesyle in just over four seconds. String two “Buzzz.. bang, bang, bang, bang bang, bang, reload, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, he then stops after his eleventh shot of a six shot string. He turns to Mike the RO and asks “What was I doing?” Mike replies “ I was sorta hoping that you would tell me.” Oh yea a shots limited stage sorta gives new meaning to the phrase, “CARMONZED” Yes, now I remember. I did a lot more whining than winning on that stage, that's for sure!! Gawdddddd! I hate to be the guy to bring the whole thing back on point!!! What an entertaining story! As I am sure we all giddy hearing about Mike having a brain fart............... The main difficulty in shooting the standards has little to do with shooting and EVERYTHING to do with the ability to have a clear mind. What is the biggest obstacle to doing well at a pistol match??? THE BRAIN FART!!!!!!! The actual demands of the standards are not that great, if you take the brain out of the panic mode and just shoot the gun. For what its worth, I think this is one of THE best exercises one can do to learn to shoot with a CLEAR mind. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.carden Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 The actual demands of the standards are not that great, if you take the brain out of the panic mode and just shoot the gun. Dave Dave.....You are 200% spot on with that statement.......It is that simple.!!!! DanBagger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 (edited) Maybe you are in the wrong forum, you sound a lot like an IDPA shooter. Really Cliff? Craig Edited April 16, 2009 by Bones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 hi guys, Nelson here again. I hear all about how "Far & Near" will make or break you at the IRC. NOT TRUE! If you check the data Ron Williamson has compiled, http://icore.org/F&N-analysis.html you will find shooting "Far & Near" can not possibly change your standings by 20 to 30 places as some people think. Taking out the par time took away the challenge? Taking away the par time has taken away the jitters and nausea. You still have to shoot at 50 yards, 25 yards, 10 yards and strong and weak hand, and still shoot Xs quickly. You still have to shoot at a fast pace to acquire a decent score on the stage and the pressure of the par time is gone. By the way...there will be black X rings this year. See you in June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Shooter Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Yahoo Nelson....I am recomending to the board that you're match director again next year....Whether you want it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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