Ramsgate Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 10.5 Match Disqualification - Unsafe Gun HandlingExamples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to: -:and this serves to give Range Officers and Arbitration Committees more leeway to deal with unusual and/or unforseen circumstances. Is no one else worried by the above? The rule book has several functions and one is to protect the competitor from capricious decision making. I can (with some difficulty) imagine a stage where the shooter carefully positioned his handgun so that it was pre aimed at the target. He did hit the target and we all know the danger of attempting to look into the mind of the shooter or stage designer. If I were the RO he would not be DQ'd but I might decide that I needed to be elsewhere next time he shot. (modestly posted with the sure knowledge that I'm out of step here) Peter B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 That's a good point, but I think we need to have a little more faith in our ROs. Then again, they/we are only human. Had the shot been fired NOT through the prop and while the sights were not aligned but the gun was sorta being picked up, I woulda said "either you're good or lucky" after the shooter was done. But the fact that the shot was made THROUGH the prop is what, in my mind, crosses the line into unsafe gun handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 Was the safety engaged? Seems the gun would have to be well out of the "pan" for the safety to be disengaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 'Twas a Glock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 PeterB, If a competitor believes an RO has made a bad DQ call, he can always appeal to Arbitration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 19, 2003 Share Posted September 19, 2003 PeterB,If a competitor believes an RO has made a bad DQ call, he can always appeal to Arbitration. Vince, I thought the shooter could not dispute the facts...as the RO sees them? (Ramsgate...it does worry me a bit too. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Flex, No, the competitor cannot dispute the facts declared by the RO, but he can argue that his actions were not unsafe ....... but you know that already. This is no different to when a Police Officer says you were speeding, ran a red light, made an illegal turn or that you were simply driving recklessly. I've served on countless arbitrations at Level III, IV and V matches, and there have been a number of cases where DQ's have been overturned, and many others where they've been upheld, but I've never experienced a case where I thought there was an animosity or ulterior motives on the part of the RO. As far as I'm concerned, the system works just fine, but if anybody can think of a better system, I'm listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Since props are hardcover, did the shooter get a score for his hit on the target that first went through the pan? I see a problem with the rules. 10.3.2.2 says it is not unsafe gun handling if you have a discharge during movement while you are engaging targets. 8.5.1 requires that the shooter have a sight picture during movement. I surmise that if the shooter didn't have a sight picture while moving and engaging targets, he is guilty of unsafe gun handling. I see shooters "point shoot" all of the time, especially on long courses that require a lot of running past close targets. Should we be DQing them? If this kind of "point shooting" is allowed, is the shooter in the scenario described in this thread required to have a sight picture to avoid an unsafe gun handling charge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old john Posted September 20, 2003 Share Posted September 20, 2003 Hi grrl, Did the shooter really question the call?? If the pan had been steel the bullet would have been either one foot away or maybe some place that would stop one from talking. It should have been a voluntary DQ. It sounds very unsafe to me rules or no rules. Feel good about your call! old john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted September 23, 2003 Author Share Posted September 23, 2003 Hi guys - I'm home again, whew, what a month! Flex, the weak hand portion of the Open stage did NOT require you to shoot under the table. The targets were really close and there was no problems finding the dot (I shot it down two!) Old John, the shooter did NOT question the call. This Nationals Match Administration put into effect an automatic review of all dq's before they became official and the RM assured me that there was NO grounds for the DQ, according to our current rulebook. And after considering the situation, he was right Had there been no cake pan, I would not have stopped the shooter. Twas a bad call on my part, but dammit, I'm human and I had a face full of blast and I don't feel bad at all for stopping the shooter and discussing the situation! Muser - the shooter got a reshoot - he was stopped, the hit from the shot through the pan was a dead issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Flex, the weak hand portion of the Open stage did NOT require you to shoot under the table. The targets were really close and there was no problems finding the dot (I shot it down two!) Good shooting!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 Even if there had been no cake pan i still would have DQed him. It was usafe plane and simple. And as Muser said 8.5.1 says you must have a sight picture while engaging targets. NO way there is a sight picture if you are reaching to pick up your gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 T.O.E., Since the shooter was stationary, no refuge could be found in 8.5.1, which specifically addresses shooting on the move or moving while not engaging targets..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 I'll add two comments to this..... First, there was quite a bit of discussion among the range staff about what was the proper call here (Monday AM quarterback type discussions). There were arguments for both sides. Second, congrats to Shooter Girl for surviving the first Nats she worked. While I unfortunately had two DQ's on my stage, I had no where near the excitement she had. In fact, if I remember correctly, the shot through the pan came one or two shooters after a competitor bobbled his gun on pick up and pointed it back over his shoulder at her (I was locked down on stage 10, so I didn't see it, just heard about it)!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 23, 2003 Share Posted September 23, 2003 OK... Seems like a safety issue, but not a rule-breaker. Our definition of "movement" being the hurdle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Hi Kathy, Interestingly enough, I had my Level 1 course right after your little event. The Rangemaster teaching the course, explained the situation and initially, I defaulted to the incorrect ruling of, he shot a prop = Match DQ. However, after learning more about the rules, it is not a DQ'able offense to shoot a prop if you're engaging a target. So, the question is not so much about moving, as much as when was engagement established. There basically are two conditions that exist when the gun goes bang. Either, the competitor is engaging a target array (i.e. not meeting the requirements of an accidental discharge) or the competitor has an accidental discharge (see rule 10.3.1.1). Since the competitor did neither of the two conditions that exist for an AD, the competitor IS engaging targets. Further evidenced by hole in the target. So officially, it's not an AD/DQ. Now, with all of the legal mumbo jumbo done, unofficially, I would say that it was an AD. However, I would have not issued a match DQ for unsafe gun handling. Not having my rule book handy, one could probably make an argument that you could DQ him for Unsportsmanlike Conduct for not acting in a responsible manner to protect the range staff and spectators (similar ruling to engaging steel closer than 10 meters...which you can do for some reason...the safety violation is incorrect...interesting thing to learn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old john Posted October 4, 2003 Share Posted October 4, 2003 All said I would have dq'ed myself. No excuses it was a AD and the target got in the way! Old john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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