How do Saiga shooters load with a slug in the middle of a run?

[sslav]

My question is a thread drift. But since this thread has been drifting since about the third or 4th post, I do not feel too bad.

If box fed shotguns are allowed in tactical class, why not allow tube fed guns to use speed loaders in tactical class?

[bigbrowndog]

Who says this topic has drifted??????????????????????

SSlav, personally I would not allow it because it plainly allows what has been accepted as "speed loaders" something that is not an integral part of the original gun, and the rules plainly state "no speed loading devices" allowed in Tactical/Standard, but thats my interpretation.

trapr

[sslav]

Who says this topic has drifted??????????????????????

SSlav, personally I would not allow it because it plainly allows what has been accepted as "speed loaders" something that is not an integral part of the original gun, and the rules plainly state "no speed loading devices" allowed in Tactical/Standard, but thats my interpretation.

trapr

By that logic, any box mag after the first is also not a part of the original gun.

[DMAC]

Interesting thread. I purchased an FN SLP Mk1 which has been great for tactical class, but I recently bought an Open Handgun so I thought I would pick up and open shotgun too.

I purhcased two Saiga 12s and sent one to Jack Travers to convert to an open gun for me. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the other, but I figure at lease I'll have some spare parts if needed.

I look forward to figuring out what to do and how to do with the Saiga once I get it from Jack. It should be fun no matter what and that is what 3 Gun is really all about for me.

[bigbrowndog]

come on,.................... you know what I mean!!!!!!!!!!

trapr

[sslav]

come on,.................... you know what I mean!!!!!!!!!!

trapr

"Come on!" only works as a compelling argument on Simpsons.

Personally I do not feel that either box fed shotguns or speed loaders for tube fed shotguns belong in tactical. But if you allow one, why not the other?

[busyhawk]

SSlav;

Personally I do not feel that either box fed shotguns or speed loaders for tube fed shotguns belong in tactical. But if you allow one, why not the other?

I have to agree, that is why the R and R Multi-Gun is making a seperate sub-Division for Saiga Tactical...at least for this year. I have yet to see how a Saiga that is running and a shooter that is willing to put some time into the reloading will compare with a tube fed magazine. This should be a good test bed as well as Trapr/BBD/Kurtm's match. We will see won't we.

Scott

[RiggerJJ]

Personally I do not feel that either box fed shotguns or speed loaders for tube fed shotguns belong in tactical. But if you allow one, why not the other?

AMEN!!!

box fed = speed loader

SSlav;

Personally I do not feel that either box fed shotguns or speed loaders for tube fed shotguns belong in tactical. But if you allow one, why not the other?

I have to agree, that is why the R and R Multi-Gun is making a seperate sub-Division for Saiga Tactical...at least for this year. I have yet to see how a Saiga that is running and a shooter that is willing to put some time into the reloading will compare with a tube fed magazine. This should be a good test bed as well as Trapr/BBD/Kurtm's match. We will see won't we.

Scott

"Saiga" and "Tactical" do not belong in the same sentence... Just more divisions to water down the whole event...There is already a division for the box feeders, Open. period.

jj

Edited March 4, 2009 by RiggerJJ

[kurtm]

WAIT...HOLD THE BOAT......I'VE GOT IT!! Changing magazines IS NOT an open only thing.....BUT speed loaders are...so IF you Saiga is loaded through STRIPPER CLIPS...it is definitely OPEN but if it takes a magazine, it can be limited or tactical. KurtM

[bigbrowndog]

sslav, you can obviously tell i watch way too much Simpsons.

But the more appropriate retort would have been,.......................DOH!!

trapr

Edited March 4, 2009 by bigbrowndog

[sslav]

WAIT...HOLD THE BOAT......I'VE GOT IT!! Changing magazines IS NOT an open only thing.....BUT speed loaders are...so IF you Saiga is loaded through STRIPPER CLIPS...it is definitely OPEN but if it takes a magazine, it can be limited or tactical. KurtM

Thank you, now I understand. My eyes have been opened.

[SinistralRifleman]

When someone designs a shotgun specifically for use with speed tubes, and they are readily available in that configuration there might be a fair comparison between a Saiga and speed tubes. Would you all still not want to compete against an Iron sight Saiga-12 in Tactical if we were restricted to the OEM capacity magazines of 8 or even 5?

"Saiga" and "Tactical" do not belong in the same sentence...

jj

Russian Special Forces would probably disagree with you there, but "tactical" is a misnomer for a division in 3 Gun anyway. Much of the equipment being used by assorted military and LE groups today would be considered "Open"

[sslav]

When someone designs a shotgun specifically for use with speed tubes, and they are readily available in that configuration there might be a fair comparison between a Saiga and speed tubes. Would you all still not want to compete against an Iron sight Saiga-12 in Tactical if we were restricted to the OEM capacity magazines of 8 or even 5?

OK you got me all confused again.

Speed loaders should not be allowed because they do not come in the box with the gun? So then Saiga users would only be restricted to the one 5 round mag that comes in the box with Saiga? OK sounds good.

but "tactical" is a misnomer for a division in 3 Gun anyway.

Yes, it was a terrible choice for a name. Limited would have been a much better choice.

[bigbrowndog]

Limited was taken, it means "no optics"

trapr

[sslav]

Limited was taken, it means "no optics"

trapr

I thought that was "Iron"

[SinistralRifleman]

When someone designs a shotgun specifically for use with speed tubes, and they are readily available in that configuration there might be a fair comparison between a Saiga and speed tubes. Would you all still not want to compete against an Iron sight Saiga-12 in Tactical if we were restricted to the OEM capacity magazines of 8 or even 5?

OK you got me all confused again.

Speed loaders should not be allowed because they do not come in the box with the gun? So then Saiga users would only be restricted to the one 5 round mag that comes in the box with Saiga? OK sounds good.

No shotgun, except for custom shop builds, comes from the factory with a Speed Chute docking port on it. Right now there are around 50,000 Saiga-12s in the country, more are coming and new mag fed shotgun designs are in the works (CMMG-12, SRM-12). These guns are produced in quantity and take detachable magazines out of the box. At some point if 3 Gun wants to stay current, and relevant, detach mag fed shotguns will have to be allowed into divisions other than open. Not every Saiga shooter has the desire to use an open rifle and open pistol to be competitive.

[sslav]

No shotgun, except for custom shop builds, comes from the factory with a Speed Chute docking port on it.

Lets dispense with the hypocrisy. How many Saiga owners run their guns bone stock in 3-gun? And since when is bone stock a requirement for any division in 3-gun?

Right now there are around 50,000 Saiga-12s in the country

And that is a drop in a bucket compared to the number of tube fed guns.

At some point if 3 Gun wants to stay current, and relevant, detach mag fed shotguns will have to be allowed into divisions other than open. Not every Saiga shooter has the desire to use an open rifle and open pistol to be competitive.

How about the current tactical shooters who have no interest in going out and buying a Saiga - which at this point is a majority.

[SinistralRifleman]

This thread is making me wish I could go to Trapr's match even more! ARGH!

Lets dispense with the hypocrisy. How many Saiga owners run their guns bone stock in 3-gun? And since when is bone stock a requirement for any division in 3-gun?

I have used a stock saiga a few times, I didn't keep using it stock because the rules make it a distinct advantage not to. Why am I going to handicap myself when I have to shoot in open anyway??? I already shoot a 1-3X scope and limited pistol in open most of the time, the only reason I am in open is because of my Saiga-12. The only reason I put a bi-pod on my rifle is because, why not I'm in open anyway.

The rifles we shoot use detachable magazines, the pistols we shoot use detachable magazines, why shouldn't the shotguns we shoot use detachable magazines?

And that is a drop in a bucket compared to the number of tube fed guns.

How many of the millions of tube fed guns have been modified to use tech-loaders/speed tubes? Not that many.

How about the current tactical shooters who have no interest in going out and buying a Saiga - which at this point is a majority.

I've sold Saigas to lots of competition shooters. Few will use them for 3 gun because they would have to shoot in open division with it.

This debate is circular. "Not enough people are using Saiga-12s so we won't allow them in tactical"..."Not enough people are using Saiga-12s because they aren't allowed in tactical". If pistol rules required everyone except open shoot revolvers, you wouldn't see many people shooting magazine fed semi-automatics either.

The major matches I am seeing more and more Saigas show up at are ones with rules/divisions friendly to their use. The number of Saiga-12s present at Ironman has increased with each passing year; Shooters can use them in Open, Trooper, or Tactical Scope (iron sights on rifle, shotgun as the one open gun).

[sslav]

The rifles we shoot use detachable magazines, the pistols we shoot use detachable magazines, why shouldn't the shotguns we shoot use detachable magazines?

Knock yourself out. Just don't make me shoot a shotgun with a detachable magazine to stay competitive. I would rather use speed loaders. If you can shoot your Siaga in tactical, I would like to be able to use speed loaders for my Benelli that I shoot in tactical.

[kurtm]

Why Brother Russle has it! AMEN brother. Now I AM a competitive shooter and I have NEVER owned a Saiga...BUT they should be allowed in ltd. tac. and open. and I have always said that! Now if you want to really see some cool box fed guns go to Europe. A full on factory works gun out of Russia is a thing of beauty! I want one! KurtM

[SinistralRifleman]

Why Brother Russle has it! AMEN brother. Now I AM a competitive shooter and I have NEVER owned a Saiga...BUT they should be allowed in ltd. tac. and open. and I have always said that! Now if you want to really see some cool box fed guns go to Europe. A full on factory works gun out of Russia is a thing of beauty! I want one! KurtM

We should do a man vs machine demo at one of the matches sometime. The outcome would likely be in your favor which would do one of two things 1) Saigas would be allowed in tactical as a skill shooter could beat it, 2) Your hands would be considered speed loading devices and you'd have to shoot in open

[bigbrowndog]

I do have to admit that the guns the Russians use are a far cry from the Saiga's being used here in the US, from what I've seen.

BTW, Tony with Tromix is supposed to be at the HPSC with some of his guns so it may be cool to see some of his versions.

trapr

[RiggerJJ]

"Saiga" and "Tactical" do not belong in the same sentence...

jj

Russian Special Forces would probably disagree with you there, but "tactical" is a misnomer for a division in 3 Gun anyway. Much of the equipment being used by assorted military and LE groups today would be considered "Open"

I do agree with you on these points.

What I was really trying say; I feel the box fed shotguns should remain in Open.

I never have liked the term "tactical" for a division in 3 gun. "limited scoped or iron" would be a better description. what to do with it in the future is a big question...makes my head hurt... but all will be taken into account for RM3G.

Allowing mag feds into "Limited" could result in an equipment race when what we really want is concentration on shooting skills with "Limited" equipment. (this is why there are few if any using revolvers or single stacks in 3 gun, HeMan excepted of course) Yes, changing a big fat mag full of shotgun shells is not easy, but the elephant in the middle of the room is, is it a comparable skill to handloading 1 round at a time? I'm not sure.

Developing new stuff needs to remain in open. Tactical (or Limited iron/scope) should remain equipment limited. heck, maybe the number of open shooters will increase as a result, as you know its not so scary! (and no Kert & Trapr, I do not want to eliminate "iron" divisions )

Believe me when I say, we are watching things...

jj

Edited March 5, 2009 by RiggerJJ

[bigbrowndog]

WHOA, JJ, how did I get dragged into this topic, i have nothing but nice thoughts, don't pick on anyone, always have nice things to say about everybody. and I get brought up in a topic I haven't even got an opinion on???????????? ?

see ya, Trapr

btw, did you notice the western horse term I used, it was for CortM's benefit, he loves horses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MRMAJOR]

Why do people seem so determined to think that every COF requirement is a direct attack against them and their weapons platform, because stage designers have it out for all the out of the ordinary guns?????????????

What made box mag fed shotguns appealing were the courses of fire one typically found up until about 1.5-2 years ago when Saigas started becoming common.

Since then I have seen matches move towards stages with the following:

1) 12 round required or less

2) Slug usage through out the course rather than at the beginning, end, or once in the middle

3) All rounds start loose in a box

4) Only one round in the gun at a time

5) Low ports, roll over prone shooting

If all these things had been common to begin with, the guns likely would not have appeared in competition as much as they are now. The fact they often can only be used in open has limited their popularity in any case.

Are these things a conscious effort to screw with mag feds, or was it a spontaneous effort to make stages more challenging? I dunno. I do know people are resistant to change. Mag fed shooters are scratching their heads at the general changes in stage design, and tube fed shooters certainly don't want their guns to be obsolete over night.

I think we will see more acceptance of mag fed shotguns when one is domestically produced. The CMMG-12 might be the answer to that.

The other thing we might see is people just not want to bother with shotguns at all, and more rifle/pistol matches popping up. The ACTS Rifle/Pistol match in Tucson here regularly attracts as many or more shooters than the local level multi-gun/3-gun matches.

I am a little late to this discussion but all these screw with the Saigas stuff really peaves me.

What part of "Open" does not explain itself. The concept of Open in our sport has been push the limit and see what works best. If you have firearm that is not as fast as the other guy, too bad, compete in another class where you feel more comfortable. There is absolutely no question Saigas and any other mag feed weapon are much faster than tube feeders when lots of rounds have to be shot. If it were not the case, our US military would be shooting some variant of 1894 Winchester.

So when course designers put Saigas at a disadvantage by various non real world requirements, it is obviously Anti Saiga, pure and simple

I am very sympathetic to guys who have spent money and then some other guy has faster (and more expensive weapon). I was actually annoyed after I had spent a lot of money and time to make my then 175 pf ( then legal) open pistol shoot sweet only to have them lower pf to 165 and then all the hard work was wasted.

Now to specifics, who the heck ever heard of COF in pistol require rounds to be loose? Or who ever heard of pistol course requireing you to change ammo types in mid course? Or one round in weapon at time, are we going back to muzzle loaders too?

Let's be real, Open is Open and our tradition is pretty much anything goes. As a sport I dont recall us ever trying to stack courses in favor of one type of weapon or other.

One of things that make our sport so exciting is the change and advance in equipment and technique to find out what works BEST, not politically popular.

Saigas are very exciting equipment to work with because its kind of like more or less like single stack 1911s were 20 plus years ago. Then creative gunsmiths came up with ways to make them faster and fast forward to today where we have all kind of options and go fast goodies. If not, we would still all be shooting 1911 single stack 45ACP.

Now, I love my tube fed Benelli and have for many years. but my pesonal opinion is Saigas when properly modified are just plain faster in ALL respects to tube feeders and inherantly shoot softer too.

Let's face it, a mistake USPSA has made in past is not letting EVERYBODY into the tent. In Pistol this has been rectified with the Stock classs. Let's not make same mistake again with Shotgun by defacto limiting some manufacturers. There is a division now for Tube Feeders if they feel their weapons are not as fast as mag loaders, its called limited.

Now Saiga haters and prejudiced stage designes, What part of OPEN do you not understand?

Edited June 14, 2009 by MRMAJOR