625JM - 45ACP 230 grain bullets

[Spray_N_Prey]

Ok I loaded up some rounds that were truely amazing. It was 3.5grains of titegroup pushing a 230 grain lead bullet down range. This was the best shooting soft push load I have ever seen for a 45.

But the power factor was 144, just slightly lower than major

now by moving up to major, how much more recoil should I expect? My friend thinks it's going to be really harsh, I would think it's not going to be that bad. Any ideas? I guess this falls on line the of the other post about skating uphill (shooting minor instead of major) .

[Bubber]

Ok I loaded up some rounds that were truely amazing. It was 3.5grains of titegroup pushing a 230 grain lead bullet down range. This was the best shooting soft push load I have ever seen for a 45.

But the power factor was 144, just slightly lower than major

now by moving up to major, how much more recoil should I expect? My friend thinks it's going to be really harsh, I would think it's not going to be that bad. Any ideas? I guess this falls on line the of the other post about skating uphill (shooting minor instead of major) .

Spray_N_Prey, just doing my gozntas you have to raise your velocity by 14%. If everything was a straight line (which it ain't) there would be a 14% increase in recoil. But there is no real way to tell what recoil will "feel" like given the feel at a light load compared to a Major load. I am not familiar with titegroup in a 45, but if you have some clays I have two loads for it one minor and one major in a lead bullet and there is a lot of difference noted on my comments on the spreadsheet with leass than 0.4 of a grain difference. There are differnces in each revo also. So to be sure you would have to check it yourself. Not very clear huh? later rdd

[Rather-B-Huntin]

Is this your first .45 ACP revo? You may well notice a big difference. My buddy (like myself) is a long time 1911 shooter whom has recently been bitten by the revo bug (I kinda gave him a nudge in this direction). The first time he fired his 625 using the same loads he shoots in his 1911, his first comments were how much additional perceived recoil there was.

Personally, I don't notice much difference when shooting side by side for some reason. But this weekend I fired a hair over 100 rounds of 168 PF ammo from my 625, and I was feeling it by the time I got done. Not excruciating, but noticable.

[Bill Sahlberg]

You will notice more recoil but that is waht Major is all about compared to minor. I had found that TiteGroup left too much unspent powder in my cylinder and getting trapped under the ejection star making me HAVE to clean and swab the cylinder after each stage or have trouble getting the next 6 in the chamber. I was using 230 gr RN Jacketed bullets and 4.6 gr of TiteGroup for a 168 PF

[Carmoney]

Some shooters are bothered by the recoil of shooting major loads in Revolver. Although some would not admit it, this is one of the major reasons some people gravitate to ICORE more than USPSA.

I started out as a pin shooter, so pretty much everything feels mild by comparison to the stuff we used to shoot!

Shawn, if the 144 p.f. stuff feels good, you shouldn't have trouble with 170 p.f. On the other hand, this is one of the reasons why the 5" 625s and 6.5" 25-2s continue to dominate USPSA--they do absorb recoil a little better than the 4" guns. The weight difference is also a factor to seriously consider when you're tempted to switch to a Ti cylinder.

But seriously, if you're using a steel N-frame, you should be able to shoot major loads all day with no pain whatsoever. If you're "feeling it by the time you get done" after just shooting 100 rounds, something is wrong. As I said on the other post, start by taking off the Jerry grips. Put on the rubber Hogues, or whatever feels good.

Second--and this is really important--when you shoot a revolver with major ammo, hang on hard!! All that stuff you read on here about "hold the gun about as hard as you would to shake someone's hand" and "let the front sight rise, it's fine as long as it returns to the same spot" and "you can't fight the recoil so don't don't try"--all that stuff is complete bullshit when it comes to shooting revolvers. Grip that thing hard. If you can't grip it hard enough to keep the muzzle down, work on your grip strength until you can. If it's painful to shoot, that may be a sign you are letting the gun roll around in your hand. Have somebody watch you shoot--if you keep shifting or re-gripping the gun as you shoot, that's a problem sign.

If you're doing everything right, and you've tried different grips, and it still hurts, then just shoot minor and enjoy it--it won't change your scores all that much.

[earplug]

I enjoyed shooting a major load of 200 grains LSP 4.7 grains of WST in my JM four inch, but my eyes didn't like the short tube.

I have switched to a five inch and the 230 LRN and with 3.7 Clays is nice. Gave a 179 when checked.

I have a scale I bought in 1976, It may not be showing the same weight as advertised, but it does the same weight each day.

Some shooters are bothered by the recoil of shooting major loads in Revolver. Although some would not admit it, this is one of the major reasons some people gravitate to ICORE more than USPSA.

I started out as a pin shooter, so pretty much everything feels mild by comparison to the stuff we used to shoot!

Shawn, if the 144 p.f. stuff feels good, you shouldn't have trouble with 170 p.f. On the other hand, this is one of the reasons why the 5" 625s and 6.5" 25-2s continue to dominate USPSA--they do absorb recoil a little better than the 4" guns. The weight difference is also a factor to seriously consider when you're tempted to switch to a Ti cylinder.

But seriously, if you're using a steel N-frame, you should be able to shoot major loads all day with no pain whatsoever. If you're "feeling it by the time you get done" after just shooting 100 rounds, something is wrong. As I said on the other post, start by taking off the Jerry grips. Put on the rubber Hogues, or whatever feels good.

Second--and this is really important--when you shoot a revolver with major ammo, hang on hard!! All that stuff you read on here about "hold the gun about as hard as you would to shake someone's hand" and "let the front sight rise, it's fine as long as it returns to the same spot" and "you can't fight the recoil so don't don't try"--all that stuff is complete bullshit when it comes to shooting revolvers. Grip that thing hard. If you can't grip it hard enough to keep the muzzle down, work on your grip strength until you can. If it's painful to shoot, that may be a sign you are letting the gun roll around in your hand. Have somebody watch you shoot--if you keep shifting or re-gripping the gun as you shoot, that's a problem sign.

If you're doing everything right, and you've tried different grips, and it still hurts, then just shoot minor and enjoy it--it won't change your scores all that much.

[Spray_N_Prey]

well two things to the above.

1. I shot this revolver (yes I was told by Carmoney NOT TO USE ANYTHING BUT FEDERAL PRIMERS) but didn't have any federal and wanted to just put a few rounds down range, so I loaded what a buddy had avaiable. They were 200 grain SWC loaded pretty warm (4.7grains titegroup) and the gun HURT like hell. It woudn't go bang 1/3 of the time and I was flinching like crazy, so bad that I could notice it. Yesterday shooting these rounds were so nice and by using federals EVERYTHING fired fine and I never flinched once. So maybe major might bite me too much, don't know I have loaded some up and off to the range tomorrow to re-chrono. I wouldn't think that 20 PF more would make it unbearable but who knows.

2. The wood grips I don't think I like. I love the hogue rubber grips on my 627pro. why would someone want to keep grips that feel like your holding a stick instead of something that has finger grooves and feels like it was made for your hand? I guess if Jerry was to jump off a bridge.........

[Ray R.]

Carmony is right. Revolvers need a harder grip. But I find my 625 doesn't bounce the front sight as much as the auto does. Maybe because I grip the revolver so high.

I use Pachmayer Grippers and grind off the little hump they have at the very top of the grip. This allowes me to grip the gun higher so recoil is more straight back.

With whatever grips you choose, going from a 144 PF to a 170 PF will be noticable-- at first. Shoot enough of the heavier load, and you'll eventually get used to it.

[Carmoney]

why would someone want to keep grips that feel like your holding a stick instead of something that has finger grooves and feels like it was made for your hand? I guess if Jerry was to jump off a bridge.........

In all fairness, the smooth Jerry grips do offer some potential advantage to those who shift the gun over to their weak-hand before the reload and back to the strong hand afterward--they permit the "slippage" that makes the gun transfer from hand to hand more readily. However, more and more of us these days are keeping the gun in the strong hand all the way through the loading process, and with that technique, rubber finger grooves work well. There's no question that rubber grips--even those that expose the backstrap like the Hoque-- are easier on the hands.

[pskys2]

why would someone want to keep grips that feel like your holding a stick instead of something that has finger grooves and feels like it was made for your hand? I guess if Jerry was to jump off a bridge.........

In all fairness, the smooth Jerry grips do offer some potential advantage to those who shift the gun over to their weak-hand before the reload and back to the strong hand afterward--they permit the "slippage" that makes the gun transfer from hand to hand more readily. However, more and more of us these days are keeping the gun in the strong hand all the way through the loading process, and with that technique, rubber finger grooves work well. There's no question that rubber grips--even those that expose the backstrap like the Hoque-- are easier on the hands.

I've used both methods and both grips and I'm just not sold on the wood grips slipping helping much at all.

I've finally settled on the Switch Hands and Rubber Grips.

The wood grips, such as JM patterns, beat the hell out of my thumb. Splitting the skin pretty quickly, and I work as a Mechanic so I don't have soft hands. The actual recoil never seems to be that much, I actually see more recoil with a 1911 than my Revo's. And in a match I don't see much but the front sight and the targets. And I never sense recoil in a match either.

[Spray_N_Prey]

Well I shot major today and it wasn't bad except for making my hand hurt, the wood grip was causing me to keep adjusting my grip about every 4 shots. It was allowing my hand to keep rising up and then the pain came. I bought a set of Hogue just like on my 627pro - so if anybody is looking for a JM grip I think there is one over in the classifieds (well very shortly there will be)

[cas]

I LOVE the JM grips... as long as I don't have to actually fire the gun.

Way too narrow for me.

[Cherryriver]

I use the JMs for minor in IDPA SSR.

I use my Webley for major in USPSA. Softest shooting .45ACP revolver I ever fired.

[professor]

FWIW, I did some chrono checking over the weekend with 2 different bullets and 3 different loading of Titegroup.

Gun: S&W 625JM, 4" bbl. JM grips.

Bullet A - Mastercraft 230 gr. RNL

Bullet B - Precision Delta 230 gr. Ball [RN jacketed, base open]

Charges of 4.15 gr, 4.45 gr., 4.80 gr. Titegroup.

I had some 45 ACP cases primed with Winchester Large Pistol primers that I wanted to shoot up. For chrono work, I figured that it wouldn't matter if they all went off the first time... or at all.

For the record, I made up 20 of each bullet-charge combination, for a total of 120 rounds. The number that got picked up by the chrono in each 20 round string ranged from 11 to 17, averaged 15 per 20. I might have missed a few in the first string from trying to shoot too fast. Even firing off that many took cycling through the cylinder several times, to try to fire as many as possible. Obviously, I won't be using this primer for match ammo.

Power Factor results, in order of increasing charge weight.

Bullet A: 175.4, 187.5, 203.0

Bullet B: 162.7, 171.7, 188.4

Based on these results, I could back off a little to about 4.0 gr titegroup and still make major consistently with the RNL.

As for the jacketed ball bullet, 4.15 gr was sub-major, with 10 of 16 individual rounds below major. With 4.45 gr, only 1 of 17 rounds was sub-major, with the batch averaging 171.7 PF. This would be a "safe" load to make major. Extrapolating to exactly 165 PF, it will take 4.23 gr to get that on AVERAGE. I wouldn't want to bet a match on passing the chrono with the 4.23 load.

Note that the lead bullets put out 13 to 16 PF units higher than the jacketed ball ammo, using the same powder charge.

The gun shot the bottom powder loading clean. Some leading with the intemediate loading. Severe leading with the highest loading. Also, smoke did not appear to be a problem with any of the loads. Then again, I wasn't shooting really fast strings.

There was a noticeable difference between lowest and highest PF in terms of recoil. I found myself regripping the gun between shots for the highest powder loading with lead bullets. I did not have any problem getting moon clips into or out of the gun. But I really wasn't shooting fast and trying to do speed reloads.

I was looking to find a single charge weight that would make major with both bullets, so I wouldn't have to reset the powder throw for making match ammo vs practice ammo. I think the load that makes major with jacketed bullets [4.46 gr] is too hot for practice ammo with RNL.

[festus1]

Here is what I found a couple of weeks ago. It was a cold day. Very cold so things may be different in warm weather. A friend gave me 100 Gap cases to experiment with. I loaded 6 batches of Gap - 4.0 thru 4.5 grains Titegroup with 230 gr. Berry's plated bullets @ 1.122" COL. The gun was a 625 w/ 4"" barrel. The 4.1 gr load ave. 725.5 fps. My regular load of 4.6 gr. Titegroup w/ Berry's 230 gr plated went ave. 742 fps. the same day. I could probably back off to 4.5 gr but after going minor but barely in the world shoot qualifier in 07 (my one chance for world renown) I feel safer w/ the 4.6 gr. loading.

Anyway, on a second trip to the range after loading up the whole batch of gap with the 4.1 gr load, the gap load felt lighter and there was definitely less muzzle rise with it than the 4.6 acp load. We loaded moon clips with gap and acp every other round and the difference in muzzle rise was more noticeable than the felt recoil.

Just sharing results.