Carbon Copy Score Sheets

[Flexmoney]

Who makes them and how much do they cost?

How far in advance do they need to be sent in to the printer?

[ErikW]

I had some done at Kinko's in just a day or two.

I don't think offset printing would be cost effective for the small quantity we're talking about. Especially since you could never use the setup again.

(Assuming we're talking about a custom scoresheet for each stage of a match.)

[Skywalker]

Flex,

I can relate we have used these score sheets for the European Shotgun Championship, and we were very pleased with the results: very few (if none) corrections from the competitors upon verify list checking.

The drawback is that we had to have them printed some 20 days in advance of the match, and they are not reusable.

If you are interested, I can ask the SO about their cost, but they were printed in Italy, thus I don't know if this info could be of any benefit to you.

Our final comment, after the match was finished, is that they are effective for large matches, but we won't be using them for small (level I and II) matches with attendance of 180/200 competitors and less than 12 stages.

[Patrick Sweeney]

There are two kinds of paper, one meant to be offset printed, and one meant to be run through a copying machine. The copy stuff is more expensive, but since you won't be using a lot, the price may not make a difference. Make your masters and run the imaging stock through a copy machine.

What you'll need are two different sheets: "coated front" and "coated back." You assemble them so the CB sits on top of the CF and the pressure of writing causes the chemicals to react and create an image. If you mix them up, and get the CF on top and the CB on the bottom, no image.

That's the real reason for colored paper, to keep them sorted out properly.

Also, you should stick with the same brand for both. You may or may not get an image with brand X CB and brand Y CF.

A general commercial printing place can print the stuff inexpensively, and quickly. But not always both. (My wife owns a general commercial printing shop, and I've spent time running an offset press.)

[Flexmoney]

Yep, I am asking about the score-sheets like the ones used at the Nationals (and some other Major matches).

I am thinking of 200 shooters (so make it 220 sheets, extra 10% as spares), multiply by 10 stages.

[ErikW]

Yeah, that's what I did, half-letter-sized scoresheets with carbonless paper (white front, yellow copy), connected at the top, just like the nationals.

I just told Kinko's what I wanted, they didn't even flinch, and I was surprised at how inexpensive it was. Give them two-up originals and they'll cut them to half-sheets.

I might still have the FrameMaker sources for the scoresheets around if you want them. They were a lot of work!

[B.J. Norris]

Kyle,

You might want to try Emanuel Bragg at Pro Tech. Sorry, I don't have any contact info on me, but it should be fairly easy to find

[Bill Nesbitt]

Flex,

All the bigger sanctioned IDPA matches require them. We just used them at West Virginia. I am pretty sure they got them locally, probably at Kinco's or another print shop.

Bill Nesbitt

[jkmccoy]

Flex,

For the Texas State 3-Gun we had 2-part carbonless scorecards printed at Office Depot. The scorecards were set up so that there were two cards per 8.5x11" sheet of paper. We had printed 100 sets of scorecards for 10 stages (really just fifty copies, each cut in half) and it cost $120.

They did it really quick but had much trouble with the concept of 50 cut in half to make 100 sets. Required several trips and yelling at the manager to get it right.

Cheers,

Kelly McCoy

[Patrick Sweeney]

All the franchise operations will charge you a lot. You might try local owner/operator shops, and if you give them a week to do it they can often turn in a better product at a lower price. (I'm surprised at some of the quotes the franchise places give for simple work, compared to what my wife quotes.) However, shipping will eat up any savings, so having her quote the job in Michigan to ship to you in (pick any other State) will not save you cash.

A big enough run is often cheaper done offset instead of copied. And looks a lot better, too.

If you go with carbonless, you'll get the best price with; black ink, two-part, paper (not card stock backers).

The price goes up with; two colors (black is a color) card stock, 3-part.

Provide them with camera-ready copy, and if you provide full-size with the intent of having it reduced to two images on regular paper (called "two-up") do some experimenting to make sure the final image is large enough to work with.

If you insist on doing the copying yourself, be absolutely sure you get the copy imaging, and not the offset imaging paper. To make them attached sets, you have to use "fanapart" padding compound. Use the same brand as the paper. Stack the sheets, compress the stack, brush the padding compound on (in a WELL ventilated area) let dry, apply another coat. When dry, fan the padded adge and the sheets will separate itno attached serts. (The compound activates only where the two imaging chemicals are together. Like magic.)

I can only see copying and padding the sheets yourself if the work is being done by a volunteer club member who is retired and needs the busywork to keep from dying of boredom. Otherwise the cost is well worth getting out of the work.

[Patrick Sweeney]

When you go for a quote, tell them you'll be in every month for the same-sized job. (And do it, too.) The price will probably come down some more. Nothing gets a printer interested like: "We'll be in each month in the first week for this job again."

[Flexmoney]

Thanks for all the info!

[Flexmoney]

btt

[shred]

Here's the yellow-copy sheet from one of ours. Almost all the clubs around here have been using this kind of carbonless scoresheets for local IPSC matches since before I was shooting.

Click the image for the large version (yes, we know OT shots are only -5)

The USPSA # and division fields rarely get used. The sticky points are when shooters forget to write in their shooter number (handled by making a cheat-sheet in stats with the culprits names on it) or leaving off or getting the stage #'s wrong (solved by making all the stages different # of rounds or steel)

.

[edit] fixed the image link

Edited December 9, 2004 by shred

[Dead Buff]

The guys in South Africa got a very easy system. They use carbon copy dot-matrix paper (yes, dot-matrix printers can still be found ). The nice thing about this is that you can go up to five pages total. They use 2 currently - orig to stats, copy to shooter. I would like 3 - orig to stats, 2nd stays with RO, 3rd to shooter...for the oops's and just-for-in-case scenarios.

This paper is also cheap, the printer is cheap, the complete squad is delivered to the stages as on "piece" of paper, so nothing gets lost...works really good.

[wgnoyes]

Yep, I am asking about the score-sheets like the ones used at the Nationals (and some other Major matches).

I am thinking of 200 shooters (so make it 220 sheets, extra 10% as spares), multiply by 10 stages.

My printer prints them on what he calls "NCR" paper, which is 2-part carbonless, white original, yellow copy. The copy is not a stiffer card like at the nationals, he's (my printer) not sure how they do that without a lot of extra work. I can't complain. My printer is an old-days IPSC shooter, and prints our scoresheets and match books for major matches (GA Championships, Area 6 3-Guns, etc) FOR FREE! And then doesn't even come to the matches and also doesn't even ask for sponsorship space anywhere. He gets it, anyway. Hands down one of the most valuable volunteers we have in the entire Georgia Section. If you need printing done and find your self in or around middle-GA, look up Antler Printing in Lyons and ask for Lester Rhoden. He most definitely deserves your business. (You won't find him right now: he disappears into the woods at the start of deer season and no one sees him again until after the season closes. And if I could ever get him to come shoot L10 on a major match level, an awful lot of current A's and masters would better watch out. Fastest draw out of a summer special I've EVER seen!)

What do I use for scoresheet source for major matches? Those that come out of ezwinscore whenever possible, on the principle of why re-invent what already exists. When I get a stage with more than 14 paper targets or some funny 3-gun stage with clays, or disappearing/flipflopping whoopajoops, I have something very similar written in powerpoint to look as much as possible like ezws sheets.

Monthly matches, we use the excel spreadsheet program that comes on the ezws cdrom to generate scoresheets that way. The club office copies the scoresheets for the match.

[Patrick Sweeney]

NCR is one of the brands. The standard white/color two sheets is available pre-collated from the manufacturer. A printer simply orders what they need (white and whatever color you've asked for) in sufficient quantity, and either "Straight" or "Reverse" collated. (It has to do with how the particular printing press used handles the paper.)

Fast, inexpensive, easy. The card backers? The printer has to order white CB, and card CF. They then print the two separately. Then, the stacks of each go into a collating machine, which marries up the stacks, and then they get glued. Extra steps call for extra money, and many copy machines can't handle card stock, so it often also ends up being an offset job.

If you really want the professional look and convenience, come up with a "one size fits all" stage scorecard layout, with club logos, and get a steady supply printed. Include a set of check marks for stage number, and train the ROs to start each scoring with "Stage X, target one.....target two....." so the transcriber can be sure and mark the right box.

[hopalong]

Flex,

Manny goes by DABLASTER on these forums, you can PM him there....

I sent him copies of my stages for the MS 3-gun championships and he sent back score sheets that fit the bill perfect. 2 part, not stiff back yellow on back.

I had 13 stages and 75 scoresheets a stage, my cost was 108.00 or something similar.

SAM

[Jim Norman]

For local matches we don't bother with a copy. We have been able to put up to 8 stages on a single sheet of 8-1/2 x 11 using both sides of course. This includes our shooter info as well as the release.

We have the match info placed in the first page header, then using Text Boxes and tables we build the stages. So far it works well.

Jim

[hopalong]

Jim,

For our Local matches we use a score sheet designed by Lynn Jones, really easy to use, set up for 6 stages though.

SAM

[Jim Norman]

For our indoor "practice" matches, we have a 6 stage sheet made up. Front side has two stages, Virginia COunt and the sign-upinfo and release, backside has 4 stages.

All stages have 10 targets, backside has a line for steel. Our outdoor scoresheets are match specific. We generally run 7 stages, occasionally 8 (2 shorts in one pit to balance out the time) It takes a bit of arranging, but this has worked here for over 6 years now.

Has anyone had experiance running off their own NCR sheets? How do you print them? How do you collate and glue them?

Jim Norman

[Patrick Sweeney]

NCR (and other brands) come in two types: offset and laser. The peculiarities of the heat-bonding process used in high-speed copiers (just laser printers, after all) didn't always go well with the chemistry off the offset sheets.

If you want to try your own laser NCR, here's how:

First, find out if you need "Straight" or "Reverse" collated paper. (this only applies to jobs running three colors. Two-sheet runs need not worry.) It has to do with how the individual machine handles the copies. I'll skip the technical description, Take four sheets of regular paper. Write "one" Two, Three, Four on them, and stack them in order on the machine. copy them. If they come out 1-2-3-4 you have a Straight machine. If they come out 4-3-2-1 or 1-2-3-4 but upside down. you have a Reverse machine.

Two-sheet jobs, you'll lose a single sheet in each run, as the machine shuffles the sheets in copying.

Always do a test run of a few sheets when you set up a run, to make sure it is all assembled correctly. Carbonless paper only works when you have the coated sides against each other.

Then take the stack of sheets, as-is, off the machine, and compress the spines. Paint them with "Fanapart" padding compound, from the same maker as the paper (Do not mix paper and padding compound brands, the chemistry may not be compatible.)

Paint once, let dry, apply another coat. Release the compression and fan the spines. You have two-part forms.

Complications: Compressing the stack isn't easy. If you don't compress, you get a messy padding job, and consume huge quantities of padding compound.

If you do it yourself, you have one choice of form size: 8.5X11. The peper doe snto come pre-cut smaller, and cutting large stacks of forms is not something you do with equipment outside of a print shop.

This is definitely something where it is wise to design a form that works, fits the paper, and turn it over to a print shop.