European Shotgun Championship

[Colt1991]

I see by the web site that the match is over with and was wondering who won the match. http://www.esc2003.it

[Skywalker]

Colt,

they are online now.

The only missing final standing is the Teams one, but I'll have it fixed by the end of today.

[mike.45]

Nice one Luca,

Great match, fantastic courses, real challange and damn fast shooters to try and keep up with !!

Loved the closing ceremony and it was nice to get a medal... all round a great week and got to beat Kurt

on a few stages....who could ask for more

see you in Greece !

Mike

[kurtm]

Mike.45:

Just so you know, Luca checked into the deal, and they are sending the medal for 3rd over all to me. They used the European results instead of the overall results by mistake. Yes you did beat me on a few stages and I fear next time you will even do better!! I am going to talk to Curt Monnig of Trijicon tomorrow and will mention Steves problem to them!! I can't thank you and Steve and Barry ever enough for all the help in Terni. That was one world class shoot!!! and you guys are world class friends.

Kelly:

It seems that the old weak hand technique will take Europe by storm!! By the end of the week , the Italians were calling me David Copperfield as my loading looked majic to them. Fairly coincidentally, Robin Taylor's article just came out in Front Sight on weak hand loading, while Eddie and Taran drop the shotgun under the arm to load it, as you know I keep it up at the shoulder all the time. As an aside, the Russian team had 2 guys that also had developed the weak hand techniuque all on thier own, and I was amazed to see it. They kind of did it like Taran and Eddie by dropping the shotgun and wanted my carriers in the worst way. I finished 3rd over all and was beat by a Italian, 1st and a Finish gentleman, 2nd. Both were world classs shooters, and were fun to shoot with. Roberto ( the Italian ) was probable the fastest shot to shot of anyone I have ever seen with a shotgun. I plan to write this match up for front sight so look for it!! KURTM

[Detlef]

Kurt,

tell us a little more about the match. On other forums, heated discussions about irregularities and rule violations amass are going on, advantage Italy. Is there anything to it? After all, this is a continental championship...

--Detlef

[mike.45]

Detlef,

Which forums are discussing this.... I had a look but cant find them....operator error no doubt

Mike

[Skywalker]

Detlef,

as part of the match organization staff, I'll be glad to reply to the rules violations charges.

Would you be so kind to point out some, since this is the only forum I am member?

Yes, we had some inconsistencies during the whole match, but they were immediately corrected: a member of the Italian Open team on stage 17 started shooting before the start signal, picking up a beep from another stage (or whatever crossed his mind), and he scored a 2.something time, when the best was 4.something.

For some strange reason, the IROA RO gave him 1 procedural for shots before the start signal, instead of having him re-shoot the stage.

This was reported to the RM, and a re-shoot was issued.

In the end, with Darth's permission, I'll report his own words at the closing ceremony "...the match was fantastic: not a single request of arbitration, no controversies, and this says it all about the organization...".

Well, actually Darth said "there is only one word to describe the match, and it starts with F..."

I was starting to get quite worried about the whole thing ,

when he finished his sentence...

[PacMan]

Yes Kurt, tell us about the match, we'd like to hear all about it. May be us N.American shooters can learn something.

[orimar3]

Hi Guys,

ESC2003 was simply a fantastic match. The host organization, FITDS left no stone unturned in making sure that the match would go down in history as the benchmark for IPSC Shotgun matches to come. Hats off to Match Director par excellence Riccardo Massantini & Gavino Mura (Deputy MD), RangeMaster Steen “The Viking” Nitscke and Luca Skywalker for orchestrating a true masterpiece of a match. Job well done guys!

It’s clear that we have upon us a match format that many regions can look forward to. Italy has set the trend and has passed on the torch to Greece. IPSC Shotgun shooting has no doubt earned itself a place in the international match calendar for years to come. If all goes well, a similar match *might* be possible in Australasia in 2004.

In my opinion, the true winner in this whole exercise are the COMPETITORS. Whatever reason you may have for shooting a scattergun in competition, the bottom line at the end of the day is that international goodwill and fellowship can be attained through sport shooting and IPSC Shotgun is just another reason to get out more often. I have no doubt that the next Euro Shotgun Championship will have an even larger participation.

As for the rumors about rule violations and other irregularities, let me be the first to say that the ESC2003 was run in a manner consistent with the international standards of IROA and IPSC. Yes, there was some confusion initially brought about by how the different participating regions interpreted the current version of the IPSC Shotgun Rules, but this was corrected early in the match.

In the end, ESC2003 is the very first competition where several regions got together to play and when you get beyond the “birthing pains”, everyone will agree that the match was lots of fun, challenging and well organized. I’m confident that we can expect better and bigger things for IPSC Shotgun shooting in the future.

Orimar3

(Now back in Manila, recovering from too much vino, the occasional grappa, espresso withdrawal and pasta overdose!!!)

[ARES]

Detlef,

as part of the match organization staff, I'll be glad to reply to the rules violations charges.

Would you be so kind to point out some, since this is the only forum I am member?

Yes, we had some inconsistencies during the whole match, but they were immediately corrected: a member of the Italian Open team on stage 17 started shooting before the start signal, picking up a beep from another stage (or whatever crossed his mind), and he scored a 2.something time, when the best was 4.something.

For some strange reason, the IROA RO gave him 1 procedural for shots before the start signal, instead of having him re-shoot the stage.

This was reported to the RM, and a re-shoot was issued.

Mr. Skywalker,

Nice explanation - perhaps you can give also some explanations to some other topics :

1. On several occasions misses shot by Italian shooters have been recorded on the score sheets by Italian "stage writers" as hits and not as misses !

2. Several Italian shooters changed equipment - barrels, magazine tubes, ammo carriers - between the stages - this is clearly against the rules - isn´t it ?

3. A minimum of two Italian top shooters have been disqualified for a clear accidental discharge by non Italian range officers - approximately 15 minutes later they were back in the match with the help of the vice match director (Italian) and the vice range master (PHI) - with very interesting explanations !

4. Also the chrono-stage was very interesting - for Italian shooters with some "power factor problems " always a solution was found to declare their ammo okay and keep them in the match.

5. In case a Italian shooter missed some steel he called for a calibration-check and in any case he was back several minutes later with a new score sheet to shoot the stage again.

In case other shooters asked for a calibration-check it was not granted - in most of the cases.

6. It seemed that the Italian top shooters trained the original competition stages for weeks in advance - this may not be against the written rules but against some sportsmanlike fairness !

And yes - Mr. Nick A. - beeing the world president of IPSC stated in the closing ceremony "This event was a tremendous success" - but there are several translations/meanings for "tremendous" !?!

My personal conclusion : I will never compete in Italy again - because I never faced in the last 25 years so much bullshit going on during an IPSC-Match !!!

DVC

ARES

[kurtm]

Pacman, and others:

The E.S.C. matchwas 21 stages of shotgun shooting consisting of short courses ( 8 rounds or less), medium courses up to 14 rounds, and long courses of up to 28 rounds of ammo. Out of the 246 rounds fired 122 were slugs and the rest were " bird shot". The stages were well designed and the props were great!! one started in a military ambulance, one started on a large teeter totter and the shooter had to go to both sides of it to complete the course of fire. One had a bridge in the middle that had to be negotiated while triing to run up range and load. It was fairly hot and some what humid. The range was an old quarry and it was like shooting in a convection oven.... just like A.G.C. on the lower part. The upper part was near the top of the quarry and the view was just breath taking. The upper range was probable 1500' higher than the lower range. There were pleanty of bobbers and swingers and swinging hard cover to keep the shooters on thier toes. The squad sizes were 14-16 people and we shot 7 stages a day, making for long days.

The things I learned were, once again there are lots of ways to load a shotgun, and all have their strengths, but for speed and ease of loading while moving in ANY direction the weak hand method seem to be the best ( especially if you can keep it at your shoulder while doing so). The shell belt they use over there look like a rack of clips rather than elastic loops. ( kind of like a broom stick clip on the wall). All the countries represented had some darn good shotgun shooters with the guys from Finland, Italy, Germany, U.K. and Slovenia being among the best!! The most used shotgun is Benelli, with a few Remingtons, mostly from the U.K. I did see some SPAS 15s but never got to see them run. I learned that even for short range slugs sights are still the way to go and with my flip up sight I did very well in the slug stages. I learned that in Italy they treat the shooters like adults, beer was alowed at the range after you put your gear away for the day. I learned that it is best not to have a sevier cornea laceration 1 week befor you get on a plane to go to a major match and that the eye heals fairly fast. I learned about a great target design by Neil Beverly of the U.K. and the design can be found in the apendics of the IPSC 2004 rule book for shotgun. I could go on and on but that will do for now. If anyone has specific questions I will be glad to reply, as I'm sure would Mike.45 and Neil Beverly. KURT

[geoff]

Well I was there too, and I think ARES is not alone in his thoughts. But it's over now, we had a giggle, had our eyes opened a little,had to get up far too early,and nearly crashed the hire car once or twice.However the steering wheel was on the wrong side of the car. I enjoyed the experience of my first international comp and was thinking of maybe slowing down on the shotgun stuff and doing more rifle.Now I'm looking at really trying at shotgun for 3 years time.What division should I choose?I won't be able to pick up a 6ft long Open Div gun as it will dwarf me.Limited? maybe.Modified? apart from 2cm of mag tube that's what I have now.As I shall be nearly 50 next time may we have a division to include walking frames?

Geoff

PS At least I beat fellow UK Open Div shooter Quattro

[Vince Pinto]

Ares,

You've made numerous complaints and serious accusations here and now about the ESC 2004, however there were no official complaints or Third Party Protests filed by any competitor from Bavaria (or any other part of Germany) during the match.

Did you actually witness all the alleged events and, if so, with whom did you file your protests at the match? In any case, if you'd like to now:

1. Identify yourself, and

2. Identify the competitors who were allegedly given "special treatment" contrary to the rules

-:I will personally investigate your claims.

In any case, in the interim period, I'm taking up the matter with German Regional Director Fritz Gepperth and German NROI Chief Jurgen Tegge, in order to determine whether IPSC Germany received any complaints from any member of the German contingent.

Vince Pinto

IPSC Secretary

[Skywalker]

Ares,

normally I don't care to answer rumors and groanings that are not documented, or have been first-person witnessed, but in this case I'll make an exception, because I feel some of the points you highlighted were blatantly false.

I share Darth's opinion that, if you had to complain about something during the match, on the range you had the complete IPSC/IROA/Match Staff Hierarchy to report.

If you didn't, it is not fair, nor sportsmanlike, to refer them now. At least it is a consistency and correctness matter.

Now to your remonstrances:

1. I wasn't reported (nor were the MD and RM AFAIK) about such unfairnesses. If you have witnessed some of these, you should have reported this immediately, naming stage, targets and people involved. I'm a certified RO from NROI and took a Level I IROA seminar with president Alexakos. I trust my Italian colleagues: they were selected for this match as the best italian ROs, and I think it is somehow slandering to imply they didn't act according to the rulebook and IROA/NROI creed.

2. I know a couple of less-than-sportsmanlike italian competitors tried to change tube magazines (sorry, no barrel changing, I wonder if you witnessed it or just heard about) on the very first day of the competition. They were (thank God and some true sportsman german competitors) spotted and the RM took a wise decision: all competitors' shotguns were applied a check label on tubes. If you have a look at the Gallery forum, in ESC 2003 random shots post, you'll easily spot these label on the foreend/tube joint. Thus, nobody could have played outside of the rules.

3. I have personally witnessed the DQ of Davide Bellini (member of Italy Limited-Pump Regional Team): he was DQed for usafe gun handling when he accidentally shot a prop during reloading (while moving, gun lower than eye level and not sighting any target). I have also witnessed the discussion MD, assistant MD, and competitor had in the secretriat office, where competitor was asking for the possibility of re-instatement. The MD and assistant MD were very clear (and clever) about this; they told the competitor "...gimme a single rule number of the rulebook as basis for asking your re-instatement and we will fight to death for it. Otherwise, if you can find none, the DQ is fair and there is a damn you, we and everybody else can do about this...". Whenever (if ever) Riccardo and Gavino fought for re-instatement of some competitors, this was done according to the rulebook, with precise quotations, and if (again, any) the competitor(s) were re-instated, this means that their argumentation were accepted without the need of going to an arbitration.

4. Again, I wonder if you talk about witnessed or reported facts. I was on the chrono stage when Rossano Zallocco (member of Italian Limited-SemiAuto regional team) was chronoed. After 6th cartridge shot (28 grams, 7.5 shot size) he was scoring PF 517 (I suspect due to a slightly undeweighted shot weight from factory). He made the PF minimum threshold at 7th shot, because he went to a safety zone and cleaned and thoroughly lubricated his barrel. I am a reloader for handgun ammo, and to me 3 PF points below the PF floor is not cheating, but a possible error somewhere. I can't see anything to complain or laugh about.

5. Edoardo Buticchi (member of Italian Open regional team), on stage 13, at about 12:30 of the first day of the match, shot a plate and it didn't fall (don't want to question if he missed and/or just grazed it). He asked the RO and RM to have a calibration check. The RM, who was probably thinking about handgun rules, said he couldn't have a calibration check on a plate, and let other shooters shoot the stage. Edoardo, rulebook in hand, pointed out that a calibration check on metal plates was in his rights (Appendix H), and the RM agreed to a re-shoot instead of going to an arbitration and having Edoardo re-shoot as well. Nothing to laugh about again, just good plain ol' rules application!

6. This is the basest insinuation you could ever do. Italian Shotgun League (composed of 4 matches and the Nationals) ended on june 15, well before the stages were definitevely approved by IROA, thus no possibility to practice them in a match. The ESC 2003 range was closed from june to mid-august for building and preparing the range, thus none could access it to practice the stages on the real range. The stages were known to all only for the released drawings, thus everybody could have practiced them if they were able to build them from the drawings!

Yes, you can always attribute the meaning you like to other people's words, but the truest meaning is the one you can get from the speaker itself (if you ever mind to ask him!), the rest is personal interpretation whose value is at least questionable.

Finally: I have personally seen a UK competitor in Limited (Semi-Auto) Division that consistently had two shells glued togheter (head to tail) to fasten the reload (i.e. he was able to insert two rounds at time in the tube). It is my opinion that this contravenes Appendix J, that says no speedloading devices are allowed in Limited division. IMO, this was an artificial means of speedloading, and was a little beyond the "creativity" the rulebook allowed. Alas, the RM ruled this legal, and we all had to comply. True sportsmanlike conduct knows when to accept a superior decision, and never whines about it.

One last consideration: if you are not going to attend any more match in Italy for the reasons you reported, I dare to say that in the next future the number of regions you will cross out from your competitions is going to increase.

I beg Administrators and everybody else's pardon if this post might sound less polite than the level you and we all are accustomed to in these forums, but after such a hard work in ESC, I felt really upset by these late and un-documented accusations.

Having said this, I will refrain in the future from answering any rumor or un-documented fact.

[mike.45]

Ares, Vince and Luca,

This is an interesting although starting to get depressing thread. I will admit I did hear lots of rumours abound during the match. I personally didn't witness any violations although I was at the stage when mag tubes were being 'adjusted' although I thought the guys were simply checking their guns.

I know guys during the match who did witness things that were questionable with their own eyes however both Vince and Luca are absolutely right that if things were not mentioned at the time to the appropriate staff then how can someone make these allegations 1 week later on a general forum like this to the senior range straff. It is unfair to do it in this forum and should have been raised at the time.

All in all it does leave a bad taste in the mouth complaining when the true facts, witnesses, and appropriate RO's are not present to put their versions of events and facts forward. I for one will definitely shoot in Italy again. I loved it, the stages were great and every RO, senior Range staff and all the competitors were truely friendly and welcoming. It has been the highlight of my shooting year and one I woulnt forget for a very long time.

Bravo Italia.

Mike

PS Luca, I think you hay have mistaken the nationality of the 'round gluing team', it wasnt the UK Limited Semi Auto team, as I was in it and there wasnt a bottle of superglue in sight !! I think the nice chaps from Switzerland had that idea

[PacMan]

Gluing two shells together??? That was creative! Learn new thing everyday, but for now, I'd just stick with 4 at a time and weak hand loading.

kurtm, I'm glad you eye is healing well. We were wondering what it did to your shooting, I guess now you know my problem of left-eye dominant for a right hander.

[ARES]

Ares,

You've made numerous complaints and serious accusations here and now about the ESC 2004, however there were no official complaints or Third Party Protests filed by any competitor from Bavaria (or any other part of Germany) during the match.

Did you actually witness all the alleged events and, if so, with whom did you file your protests at the match? In any case, if you'd like to now:

1. Identify yourself, and

2. Identify the competitors who were allegedly given "special treatment" contrary to the rules

-:I will personally investigate your claims.

In any case, in the interim period, I'm taking up the matter with German Regional Director Fritz Gepperth and German NROI Chief Jurgen Tegge, in order to determine whether IPSC Germany received any complaints from any member of the German contingent.

Vince Pinto

IPSC Secretary

Dear Mr. Vince Pinto,

Yes - I have reported all these incidents during the match to several match officials (i. e. range master, vice range master) and their answer was, in case I could proof these incidents "black on white" I should go for arbitration and then they can do something against it.

No - I have not filed any official protest during the match because I witnessed these incidents only but was not able to proof it "black on white".

If you like - as you offered in your post - you may investigate one claim as an example; but of course it will have no influence on the outcome of the match because the match is over !

1. One Italian modified shooter shooting in squad no. 19 was disqualified (temporarily) for an accidental discharge and/or unsafe gun handling while shooting stage no. 14 - The Courtyard.

I witnessed the following : While the shooter was going down onto his knees at the last shooting position where the targets were placed on the ground, barrel approx. 45 degrees pointing upwards, butt under his armpit - not in the shoulder, sights not at eye level, a slug round left the barrel and the shooter nearly lost his shotgun by surprise.

The female Italian range officer supervising the shooter lifted her hand on occasion of this incident but didn´t stop the Italian shooter immediately, but afterwards after a short discussion with the range officer from Poland also on duty on this stage the shooter was disqualified.

Approximately 15 minutes later the Italian shooter was back in the match !?!

DVC

ARES

[ARES]

Ares,

normally I don't care to answer rumors and groanings that are not documented, or have been first-person witnessed, but in this case I'll make an exception, because I feel some of the points you highlighted were blatantly false.

I share Darth's opinion that, if you had to complain about something during the match, on the range you had the complete IPSC/IROA/Match Staff Hierarchy to report.

If you didn't, it is not fair, nor sportsmanlike, to refer them now. At least it is a consistency and correctness matter.

Now to your remonstrances:

1. I wasn't reported (nor were the MD and RM AFAIK) about such unfairnesses. If you have witnessed some of these, you should have reported this immediately, naming stage, targets and people involved. I'm a certified RO from NROI and took a Level I IROA seminar with president Alexakos. I trust my Italian colleagues: they were selected for this match as the best italian ROs, and I think it is somehow slandering to imply they didn't act according to the rulebook and IROA/NROI creed.

2. I know a couple of less-than-sportsmanlike italian competitors tried to change tube magazines (sorry, no barrel changing, I wonder if you witnessed it or just heard about) on the very first day of the competition. They were (thank God and some true sportsman german competitors) spotted and the RM took a wise decision: all competitors' shotguns were applied a check label on tubes. If you have a look at the Gallery forum, in ESC 2003 random shots post, you'll easily spot these label on the foreend/tube joint. Thus, nobody could have played outside of the rules.

3. I have personally witnessed the DQ of Davide Bellini (member of Italy Limited-Pump Regional Team): he was DQed for usafe gun handling when he accidentally shot a prop during reloading (while moving, gun lower than eye level and not sighting any target). I have also witnessed the discussion MD, assistant MD, and competitor had in the secretriat office, where competitor was asking for the possibility of re-instatement. The MD and assistant MD were very clear (and clever) about this; they told the competitor "...gimme a single rule number of the rulebook as basis for asking your re-instatement and we will fight to death for it. Otherwise, if you can find none, the DQ is fair and there is a damn you, we and everybody else can do about this...". Whenever (if ever) Riccardo and Gavino fought for re-instatement of some competitors, this was done according to the rulebook, with precise quotations, and if (again, any) the competitor(s) were re-instated, this means that their argumentation were accepted without the need of going to an arbitration.

4. Again, I wonder if you talk about witnessed or reported facts. I was on the chrono stage when Rossano Zallocco (member of Italian Limited-SemiAuto regional team) was chronoed. After 6th cartridge shot (28 grams, 7.5 shot size) he was scoring PF 517 (I suspect due to a slightly undeweighted shot weight from factory). He made the PF minimum threshold at 7th shot, because he went to a safety zone and cleaned and thoroughly lubricated his barrel. I am a reloader for handgun ammo, and to me 3 PF points below the PF floor is not cheating, but a possible error somewhere. I can't see anything to complain or laugh about.

5. Edoardo Buticchi (member of Italian Open regional team), on stage 13, at about 12:30 of the first day of the match, shot a plate and it didn't fall (don't want to question if he missed and/or just grazed it). He asked the RO and RM to have a calibration check. The RM, who was probably thinking about handgun rules, said he couldn't have a calibration check on a plate, and let other shooters shoot the stage. Edoardo, rulebook in hand, pointed out that a calibration check on metal plates was in his rights (Appendix H), and the RM agreed to a re-shoot instead of going to an arbitration and having Edoardo re-shoot as well. Nothing to laugh about again, just good plain ol' rules application!

6. This is the basest insinuation you could ever do. Italian Shotgun League (composed of 4 matches and the Nationals) ended on june 15, well before the stages were definitevely approved by IROA, thus no possibility to practice them in a match. The ESC 2003 range was closed from june to mid-august for building and preparing the range, thus none could access it to practice the stages on the real range. The stages were known to all only for the released drawings, thus everybody could have practiced them if they were able to build them from the drawings!

Yes, you can always attribute the meaning you like to other people's words, but the truest meaning is the one you can get from the speaker itself (if you ever mind to ask him!), the rest is personal interpretation whose value is at least questionable.

Finally: I have personally seen a UK competitor in Limited (Semi-Auto) Division that consistently had two shells glued togheter (head to tail) to fasten the reload (i.e. he was able to insert two rounds at time in the tube). It is my opinion that this contravenes Appendix J, that says no speedloading devices are allowed in Limited division. IMO, this was an artificial means of speedloading, and was a little beyond the "creativity" the rulebook allowed. Alas, the RM ruled this legal, and we all had to comply. True sportsmanlike conduct knows when to accept a superior decision, and never whines about it.

One last consideration: if you are not going to attend any more match in Italy for the reasons you reported, I dare to say that in the next future the number of regions you will cross out from your competitions is going to increase.

I beg Administrators and everybody else's pardon if this post might sound less polite than the level you and we all are accustomed to in these forums, but after such a hard work in ESC, I felt really upset by these late and un-documented accusations.

Having said this, I will refrain in the future from answering any rumor or un-documented fact.

Dear Mr. Skywalker,

Let me make 4 comments on your last posting :

1. All these incidents happened - despite the fact that no official protest has been filed during the match - and were witnessed by me and also other shooters from different countries; they are not blatantly false as stated by you.

While living in a free country I consider is as my right to report these incidents at any time to any person during the match, 1 day after, 1 week after or 1 year after the match and maybe I can help to prevent that such incidents are going to happen in the future in an international IPSC-Match again.

2. Topic on equipment change : With your reply you confirm that match officials only took action after some foreign shooters were going to proof it "black on white" by using digital cameras that Italian shooters were violating the IPSC-rules !

3. Topic on power factor problems/chrono stage : According the IPSC-rules, if in the end 7 rounds have been fired over the chrono, the average velocity of the highest 3 shots out of 7 shots must be considered for calculation of the power factor and not only the velocity of the 7th shot - are you sure that this procedere has been followed correct ?

What about the Italian female shooter (later decorated as European Champion in her category) - her ammo made in the beginning at the chrono stage only factor 492 - if I remember right ?

4. Topic on gluing shells together : This "creative" practice may be questionable - but far more questionable seems the "Italian creativity" regarding equipment modifications.

Italian modified shooter (squad 19, temporarily disqualified on stage 14, see my other post) had attached on his shotgun 2 speedloading devices - at least in the opinion of several other modified shooters.

Attached to his shotgun sideways was a lever which allows him to depress the loading floor plate of his shotgun - this makes it easier and faster to load shells.

Furthermore he had attached around the loading port two angle irons which are guiding the shells to be loaded into the loading port and these angle irons allow him to place 2 or 3 shells in a row on his gun and to shove them in the magazine tube altogether with one stroke.

These speedloading devices were approved (as I was told) by your match officials as modified-legal - so it made no sense at this match to file an official protest and to burn 100,-- USD arbitration fee.

By next week I should have a foto document available of these questionable modifications and I would like to receive the judgment of other IPSC-officials around the world (please no Italos) whether these devices should be considered in the future as legal for the shotgun-modified-division.

DVC

ARES

[kurtm]

Pacman:

The first day of the comp was still a little blurry for my right eye. I can't say it hurt me too much but every thing I saw out of that eye, had a pretty good halo...kind of like if you had spent all day in a hevily chlorinated pool. The eye drops and saline paste that I put in my eye every hour did their part and by thursday this effect was very minimal and by friday non existent. Like I said I don't think it hurt me much as all the shooting the first day was close and I could see the targets just fine, except for one which was gray on a fairly gray back ground. I lifted my head off the stock to see if I had hit it and then in my spectaculer way left it up for the next 3 shots with predictable results. I had to laod 2 in a 8 round stage when I started with 9......you do the math!! The load went great and after the stage I was swamped with shooters wanting to know if what they saw, was what they saw......This was the first introduction they had to the weak hand, gun at the shoulder loading.

I don't think I want to get into any of the allegations made other than to say, that there was some confusion as to which rule book was being used, and how some of the rules were interpreted by the various teams. Yes we had to seal the mag tubes as Mike45 stated, which just showes how fast problems were responded to in order to make this a truely world class shoot ( this happened the first day, on stage 14 and it was unclear if tubes were being changed or just serviced. I saw this personally and it was imeadiately taken care of befor a single shot was fired. Great job!!!) KURTM

[PacMan]

Great job Kurt for the 3rd overall placement. Good show for RM3G (even though you're an Okie now.)

[orimar3]

Ares,

Due to my jet lag and fatigue from travelling, there are many things I can't recall at the moment. However, what is clear to me is that your allegation regarding a DQ reversal on stage 14 is not accurate. I do recall taking this up with you during the match and I really wish that you took the pain to formally protest this for your own peace of mind.

I was called to Stage 14 after the incident took place. It was the Italian RO Sylvia Bussi who requested for the RM due to the fact that she was unsure of her call. Upon arriving at the stage, I first asked the Polish CRO what happened and then asked the Italian RO her version of the incident. Both officials were clear in saying that the discharge was legitimately on target, in a safe direction and did not strike a prop or go over the backstop. I did not witness this incident, but was called by the CRO & RO of the stage to make a call if a DQ or not was warranted as they were unsure of the call. In my opinion, it was obvious that that the officials were unclear of their call and I gave the benefit of the doubt to the shooter and ordered the score to stand and reversed the DQ. It's important to note here that the RO did not stop the competitor at anytime.

Now, given your 25 years of competition experience, you may not always agree with the call of match officials. This is precisely why you are allowed to file a 3rd party protest. It is also not easy to for any match official to make judgement calls. As a match official, you have to trust the information you get from the people running the stage or people you work with when decision time comes.

I'm sorry you do not agree with the call made, but you should have protested right there if you felt you were put at any disadvantage.

I'd like to also point out that you are clearly missing the point of the whole exercise. You are very much aware that this is the first time for several regions to come together for an IPSC Shotgun match. Many things are untested and quite frankly, we had to put up with quite a lot of confusion brought about by the current rules. I can tell you now with no fear of contradiction that we tried to correct the problems as best we could. There is a fine line between being a range official and range police (as some wanted us to be). In the end, we put in place checks to prevent equipment changes and placed a great deal of trust in the sportsmanship that I believe lives in all shooters.

Rome was not built in a day and you certainly do not expect the very first L4 IPSC Shotgun Championship to be without hitches. I'd rather that we take this as part of the learning curve and move on. It's serves us no purpose to accuse others of inappropriate action or worse- cheating, when it's done after the fact. I say we move on and look forward to making the sport bigger and better for everyone concerned.

[ARES]

Ares,

Due to my jet lag and fatigue from travelling, there are .......

I'd like to also point out that you are clearly missing the point of the whole exercise.

I'd rather that we take this as part of the learning curve and move on.

I say we move on and look forward to making the sport bigger and better for everyone concerned.

@Orimar3,

So you are telling me that I and approx. 100 other shooters paid 250,-- EURO entry fee and approx. min. additional 1.250,-- EURO per person for other expenses to enable IROA-officials to learn how to supervise a match - thank you very much ! - but please consider that this was a Level IV-Match and not a club level match !!!

Maybe you allow me to tell and teach you and other IROA-officials something :

For purpose to prevent equipment changes or modifications during a match (IPSC-pistol) in Germany and Austria for example, even at some club level matches, we are using a competitor-equipment-control-sheet.

On this sheet several details of the competitors gun and also other details regarding other personal equipment used by the competitor are listed.

This sheet has to be presented to the range officers at each stage - so no chance to play with your equipment and the IPSC-rules.

I was very surprised not to find such type of competitor-equipment-control-sheets at a Level IV-Match - especially because this match was held in Italy ......

So I hope you and other IROA-officials are doing your homework !

DVC

ARES

[benelli2]

Kurt, my left handed loading buddy, so tell me if my loading style and equipment would have been legal in the match as I was never able to get an answer before and I unfortunately didn't get to go? Tell us more you well traveled shooter.

Call me

[Neil Beverley]

Guys

It’s all very easy to let these discussions detract from the very substantial benefits which will result from this match.

Until now IPSC Shotgun has only been shot at Regional level and hasn’t particularly attracted much global attention.

Setting any other comments aside this match has certainly proved that IPSC Shotgun has a very positive future and has demonstrated that the discipline is every bit as exiting and as viable as handgun and rifle. There were a number of observers who were able to witness how it can work within their regions.

I am aware that there have been some concerns expressed about some aspects of the match but we must take care that this does not lessen what has been significantly achieved and which sets a path for bigger and better things in the future.

Taking this subject on it’s own I for one am extremely grateful to the Italian Region for pressing ahead with the match. I have no intention to be dismissive of any other claims or concerns but for me I consider that the sport itself has been a big winner overall.

Onwards and upwards, and with the benefit of some valuable lessons leaned!

[Georg Moskopp]

Hi Mike, Kurt, Neil, Vince, Luca and all others,

greetings from Germany.

After beeing back home from ESC for more than a week, just a few thoughts from my site...

IMHO it is not worth to discuss if this and that happened and what the consequences are. As Vince pointed out, there was no official protest or arbitration filed. And now, the match is over. No need to play the cards now from the back.

Let's look forward for the upcoming shotgun matches and the next Europeans in Greece. The lessons were tought and sometimes learning might be painful...

But what I really enjoyed during this match was the great fun and spirit we had in our squad. Whenever I had the chance to select the shooters I want to shoot the match with, I couldn't have made a better choice ! This kind of friendship should occur in more matches. Looks like the shotgunners run in a similiar mode like the wheelgunners

Thank you guys from Teams Italia, UK and the (obviously ) largest Team in the match, Team USA (or was it just the Oklahoma-Team ???)

Hope to meet you all soon on another match for even more fun and good shooting.

DVC,

Georg