hitman Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 ATF has no limit. State Fire Code may or may not list max quantity. Here is all ATF says about powder. Black Powder and Smokeless Powder. The ATF licenses manufacturers and sellers of black powder, an explosive commonly used in muzzle-loading firearms. However, other than requiring that purchasers be at least 21 years old, the ATF has no authority to regulate sales of less than 50 pounds of black powder. Because black powder is relatively inexpensive (between $5 and $15 per pound), it is the most common explosive used in pipe bombs. Additionally, the ATF does not regulate smokeless powder, a more expensive explosive used in the manufacturing of firearms ammunition. Developed in the late 19th century to replace black powder, smokeless powder leaves minimal residue in a gun barrel following its use. Approximately 10 million pounds of commercial smokeless powders are produced in the United States each year. The powder is about eight times as expensive as black powder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Strange how, when you actually know the law, so many problems just go away. Thanks, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 It probably isn't an issue... till your house burns down and your insurance company declines to pay the claim because of improper storage.... just something that keeps me a little concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Actually, smokeless powder burns so fast, and its effects are so contained, I can't imagine it really making a difference. But then, I'm not an insurance investigator, nor do I play one on TV. Though I do have to admit that having large quantities of black powder, which is actually an explosive, on hand would tend to scare the hell out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) The DOT has the national regulations covering it . The Hogdon reloading Book I know you guys don't read books has the DOT Storage and transport Rules 10-3.3 Transportation of more than 50bl of smoleless propellant in private vehicles is pohibited 10-3.2 Quanites of smokless propellants exceeding 25 bltransported in a private vehicle shall be transported in a portable magazine having wood wall of at least 1" thick 10-3.7 kinda long =Personal use Smokless propellants = but it says more than 20 but not more than 50 must have a wooden box or cabinet with walls of at least 1" thick All this boils to keep no more than 50 bl in any one cabinet , the wall must be 1" thick Or regular wood cabinets are only 3/4" thick. So if you have a fire the insurance co could posible get out of paying if you have not followed DOT regulations. Edited January 3, 2009 by AlamoShooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Actually, smokeless powder burns so fast, and its effects are so contained, I can't imagine it really making a difference. But then, I'm not an insurance investigator, nor do I play one on TV. Though I do have to admit that having large quantities of black powder, which is actually an explosive, on hand would tend to scare the hell out of me. I'm no investigator either. However I saw a local news clip on TV the other day. Reporter claimed that the firemen couldn't (or wouldn't) go into the house cause of the rounds (maybe primers?) going off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wooddog Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 I found this info for Massachusetts... 13.04: Licenses, Registrations, Permits and Certificates (1) Exemption: License, Registration, or Permit: In accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 148 § 13, the Board hereby prescribes the following quantities of explosive materials that shall be exempt from License, Registration, and Permit and may be kept, or stored in a building or other structure: (a) Small Arms Ammunition 1. Not more than 10,000 rounds of rim fire ammunition. 2. Not more than 10,000 rounds of center fire ammunition. 3. Not more than 5,000 rounds of shotgun ammunition. ( Small Arms Ammunition Primers 1. Not more than 1,000 caps or other small arms primers. © Smokeless Propellants 1. Not more than 16 pounds. 2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store Smokeless Propellants. 3. Not more than two pounds of such propellant shall be stored in a multiple family dwelling or a building of public access. (d) Black Powder 1. Not more than two pounds. 2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store black powder. (e) Exempt quantities of small arms ammunition, primers, smokeless propellants and black powder shall be stored in original containers and such containers shall be stored in a locked cabinet, closet or box when not in use. (f) Special industrial explosive devices when in quantities of less than 50 pounds net weight of explosives. 13.04: continued (2) Storage By Permit: In accordance with the provisions of M.G.L. c. 148 § 13, the Board hereby prescribes the following quantities of explosive materials that shall be exempt from License, and Registration, and may be kept, or stored in a building or other structure provided a permit has been obtained from the head of the local fire department; (a) Small Arms Ammunition: Private Use. Small arms ammunition in amounts over that specified in 527 CMR 13.04(1), that do not exceed 100,000 total rounds at any one time, may be kept for private use provided none of the individual limitations listed below are exceeded. 1. 10,001 to 30,000 rounds of rim fire ammunition. 2. 10,001 to 50,000 rounds of center fire ammunition not to include shotgun ammuni- tion. 3. 10,001 to 50,000 rounds of shotgun ammunition not to include center fire ammunition. ( Small Arms Ammunition: Commercial Use. Not to exceed 200,000 rounds in any combination. © Small Arms Ammunition Primers: Private Use Not to exceed 10,000 Small Arms Ammunition Primers. (d) Small Arms Ammunition Primers: Commercial Use Not to exceed 100,000 Small Arms Ammunition Primers. (e) Smokeless Propellants: Private Use 1. Not to exceed 48 pounds Smokeless Propellants. 2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store Smokeless Propellants. 3. The head of the local fire department may limit the quantity of smokeless propellants stored by permit to as low as two pounds if such propellant shall be stored in a multiple family dwelling or a building of public access. (f) Smokeless Propellants: Commercial Use Not to exceed 100 pounds smokeless propellant. (g) Black Powder: Private Use 1. Not to exceed five pounds of black powder. 2. Persons under 18 years of age may not keep or store black powder. 3. The head of the local fire department may limit the quantity of black powder stored by permit to as low as two pounds if such black powder shall be stored in a multiple family dwelling or a building of public access. (h) Black Powder: Commercial Use Not to exceed 50 pounds of black powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yardbird Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 (edited) Just found this in the Vermont Statutes § 3061. Possession A person who keeps or suffers to be kept upon premises owned or occupied by him, within fifty rods of an inhabited building of another person, more than fifty pounds of gunpowder or nitroglycerine at one time, or more than one pound unless contained in sound canisters of tin or other metal, or a package containing more than fifty pounds of dynamite, shall be fined $25.00, and $25.00 additional for each day that it is so kept after notice from an inhabitant of such town to remove the same. Sounds like I can't have two plastic bottles of powder on my shelf. Although they may be talking about blackpowder. Edited January 3, 2009 by Yardbird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharonAnne9x23 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 in a fire, primers would not be popping off. If they heated enough to ignite they would all go. Anyone who has had a primer tube or Lee primer tray go off knows how fast that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Stoeger Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Where do you draw the line between laws that it is ok to break and those that are not? I break the really dumb laws if I think I can get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 A person who keeps or suffers to be kept upon premises owned or occupied by him, within fifty rods of an inhabited building of another person, more than fifty pounds of gunpowder or nitroglycerine at one time, or more than one pound unless contained in sound canisters of tin or other metal, or a package containing more than fifty pounds of dynamite, shall be fined $25.00, and $25.00 additional for each day that it is so kept after notice from an inhabitant of such town to remove the same. "Rods"? Sounds like that law's been around for awhile. Actually, that seems consistent with the "no more than 50 pounds of black powder" BATFE law that's already been mentioned. Adding nitroglycerine to that makes sense, since they're both explosives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I break the really dumb laws if I think I can get away with it. And have the balls to admit it. After all, ignorance is no excuse for the law. Better be careful, though. "They" might be watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 This reminds me of a something that happened several years ago when I was building my house and barn. I had to get a $10 permit from the state Fire Marshall before I could do my own electrical wiring. The permit had a number to call for an inspection when you got finished with the wiring. I called, thinking that I had to. I told the inspector that I was done and asked about an inspection. Marshall- "Are you requesting an inspector?" Me- "Uh, I guess not, don't you want to see if I did everything right?" Marshall- "Your gonna be the one sleeping in it. If it's good enough for you, its good enough for me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle O Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 This is fun. I like powder. and primers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 "Ignorance is no excuse for the law." It's kind of refreshing to hear a judge admit that. Now, if we could just get all 535 of those folks in DC to understand the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 What this reminds me of is a conversation I had years ago with a friend who was on personal terms with the agent in charge of our nearest big city ATF office. My friend asked the agent, "So, really, how much does the average, decent guy who's into guns have to worry about the ATF f*#king with him?" The agent replied, "Greg, if you were to call our office today and tell us, 'My next door neighbor has a fully automatic, stolen M60 in his garage, I've seen the gun, and it's there right now'....it would be six months before we could respond. We're just that busy." Especially today, in the post-9/11 world, the BATFE is incredibly overworked. Even if they wanted to screw with someone over something piddly (and why would they?), they simply don't have the time. This sort of useless make-work is the last thing a BATFE agent needs in their life. Add to this the not-inconsequential fact that what we're discussing here isn't even a crime, and you can see how I can't really get too wrapped around the axle over the idea that the BATFE is going to drive an M1 Abrams through my front wall over my 8-pound canisters of Titegroup, Clays, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 "Ignorance is no excuse for the law." It's kind of refreshing to hear a judge admit that. "Judge"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 My next door neighbor, a State Court Judge, reminds me "ignorance is no excuse for the law". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PINMAN44 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Oy gavault Duane? When did you start reading yiddish for dummies? HAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 A judge with a sensa huma. Gotta love it. Also love the new (?) signature, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Oy gavault Duane? When did you start reading yiddish for dummies? Actually, years (decades?) ago I read an extract from Leo Rosen's The Joy of Yiddish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PINMAN44 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 oh boychick... Anyways about this whole powder thing, I agree with the don't ask don't tell deal. I just make sure that if I'm storing alot of powder that is stored correctly so that I don't end up getting rid of it years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PINMAN44 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 The joys of Yiddish hahaha I gotta find that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I just make sure that if I'm storing alot of powder that is stored correctly so that I don't end up getting rid of it years later. Yeah, that would suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 What this reminds me of is a conversation I had years ago with a friend who was on personal terms with the agent in charge of our nearest big city ATF office. My friend asked the agent, "So, really, how much does the average, decent guy who's into guns have to worry about the ATF f*#king with him?" The agent replied, "Greg, if you were to call our office today and tell us, 'My next door neighbor has a fully automatic, stolen M60 in his garage, I've seen the gun, and it's there right now'....it would be six months before we could respond. We're just that busy." Especially today, in the post-9/11 world, the BATFE is incredibly overworked. Even if they wanted to screw with someone over something piddly (and why would they?), they simply don't have the time. This sort of useless make-work is the last thing a BATFE agent needs in their life. Add to this the not-inconsequential fact that what we're discussing here isn't even a crime, and you can see how I can't really get too wrapped around the axle over the idea that the BATFE is going to drive an M1 Abrams through my front wall over my 8-pound canisters of Titegroup, Clays, etc. Did you hear about the guy that loaned a fellow shooter his AR? Everything was fine until the kid was at the range shooting the rifle and it doubled a time or two. A phone call from spectators and the BATFE was all over both the kid and the owner of the rifle claiming that it was a machine gun since it would fire more than 1 round with a single pull of the trigger. The guy was arrested and released on bond even though the ATF could not replicate the problem without some "forceful manipulation" of the rifle. I think it is still an on going battle. They seized all of the mans guns in short order too and of course he is on some kind of home arrest or some crap. You wanna see how fast the BATFE will react to something, keep a jug of empty gunpowder in your back seat and toss a piece of PVC pipe back there with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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