Divisions And Practicality

[Chuck D]

There has been much talk as to the number of divisions IPSC/USPSA has and if there is a need for all of them. Some would like to streamline the current division structure, some would grow it. After some thought I came up with an idea in which both IPSC and USPSA could streamline the divisions , satisfy the majority of the membership and put a bit more "P" ( as in Practical) back into Practical Shooting. This is what I came up with...

Open Division- Leave it as it is with the sole exceptions of adding the CATAGORIES of Open Revolver and Open 10. If there is enough entries at both the local and major match level, award whatever prizes the match director/committee wishes. If the support for the catagory ISN'T there...the competitor shot for overall awards only. No extra fees or expenses need be incurred.

Limited/Standard Division- Leave it as it is. Would eventually like to see a "meeeting of the minds" between USPSA and IPSC in regards to holster/equipment placement (with the USPSA rules being adopted by IPSC) but this isn't a major requirement.

USPSA Limited 10 Division- Holster and allied equipment placed at or behind the hipbone and no race gun type holsters allowed. L10 has the potential to become a true single action firearm type "carry gun division". I would not restrict the division to Single Stack guns only and would use the current USPSA criteria for Limited Division in deciding what is acceptable concerning firearms modifications. You COULD as a matter of argument carry a wide dust cover STI/SV or a Para-Ord. but it is unlikely that you would carry it in your Safariland 012 or CR Speed rig.

Production Division- 5 pound trigger pull weight, Change grips and sights only, no external modifications, can "blueprint" the factory internal parts but no Aftermarket internal parts be used. Allow guns with a factory barrel length of 5.1 inches and no special "competition" models be allowed. No race gun holsters allowed and use the current holster/equipment placement rules.

Revolver Division- Replace sights and grips only. No external modifications. "Blueprint" factory internal parts only. No special factory "competition" models allowed. Max barrel length 5.25 inches. No race gun type holsters allowed and holster placement ONLY be at or behind hipbone. Speedloaders/Moonclips can be in front of hipbone.

* 6 inch barreled guns ,race type holsters and Preformance Center guns would compete in Open Revolver.

By instituting practical (carry gun) type restrictions on L10 Production and Revolver Divisions the "P" element is reintroduced to IPSC shooting without upsetting the apple cart to an extensive degree. We get to keep ALL the current divisions and satisfy the requests of a certain portion of the membership by creating CATAGORIES for which to compete. Awards would be given ONLY if participation in the catagories is large enough.

If I'm WAY off base or just plain "all wet"...I'm certain I'll be told so !

Just an idea........

[Steve Anderson]

What is a "special competition model"

SA

[Chuck D]

A one off "custom shop" type thing. It's not aimed at the Glock 34/35...it's aimed at say a 'factory custom shop tuned" gun that can only be "special ordered" from the factory.

[Steve Anderson]

So, if a gun mfg makes a new model designed to work within your proposed parameters, that's not a special comp. model?

My point is, anytime you have a rule, we gamers are gonna game right up to the edge.

This has no effect on new shooter recruitment and really is a seperate (NON) issue.

I like the divisions the way they are...

SA

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Chuck, I came to IPSC/USPSA to escape the practical/concealment/tactical requirements that IDPA imposes on a competitor. I shoot limited 10 and enjoy the flexibility that I have with my choice of equipment and shooting style. I don't care if I can conceal a speed holster or not, that is not what attracts me to IPSC. Take too much of that FUN away and I will just go shoot with the uptight tactical folks at our local IDPA club! I think that USPSA should emphasize what it is good at and leave the tactical to IDPA.

Larry

[Wakal]

I don't see a need for Open-10...just about as silly as NASCAR with a 5-gallon tank, IMO, as Open is supposed to be the 'go for broke' (literally) side of the house...but I agree completely about the L-10 changes.

L-10 should be the "production" for the 1911 type AND the super 1-pound-trigger DeathGlocks. Production holster types and positions with a ten-round max. Being able to run my nifty 6" STI BennyBlaster with downloaded mags out of a itty bitty holster is silly...L-10 needs to be a little more "different" than just short-loaded magazines!

Production needs a 5-pound trigger minimum in the worst way, but otherwise seems to be running just fine.

That would give us Open and Limited with the same holster...L-10 and Production with the same holster...and then the poor revolver guys as Limited (current rules) and Open (load up those 9-shooters with the Holosights, boys, we are shootin' Open Revolver!).

Six.

And...I'd like to see the age to Junior reduced to 18, while I'm wishing for things I won't have

Alex

[Chuck D]

Steve:

Any model...available to the general public that is NOT a special order or one off type firearm from the manufacturers "custom shop" AND meets the requirements I've set forth is legal.

Discussion and Debate is underway !

[PhilTerry]

Thread drift - but adding to Wakal's comment - I agree that the age limit for Junior needs to be reduced, I would suggest that on reaching your 18th birthday you are no longer a Junior, similarly with Senior and Super Senior I would suggest dropping Super Senior and moving the Senior category to cover those who have reached their 60th birthday. Law and Military should go as well unless the competitors are using their duty rig and issued firearms.

[vluc]

What is practical about a 5 lb minimum for production? What is practical about a 1.25 lb pull? Sorry for the drift but this is escaping me. If I want to use it and it works for me, why can't I?

RANT ON:

if we want all folks on an equal footing then require a certain bullet weight, require we all use the same powder charge and PF, take away all individuality and what works for each person. heck, let's socialize IPSC/USPSA so we all have the same things and do the same things with the same things. Despite the fact that what works for you may not work for me based on my talents skills and abilities... BORING!!

So if I am physically handicapped, wish to shoot but need accomodation to do so, let's say a lesser trigger pull...then I can't have it?

Sorry, but the more I hear this tripe (no offense intended) the more I can't understand where this is coming from. Front Sight prints an article on how to get a 2.25 lb pull for your Glock in its most recent edition, and we hear that others want a 5 lb minimum. Where are we going with all of these proposed restriction?

RANT OFF:

[Flexmoney]

Trigger weight limit or not...people will still spend $200 on trigger jobs. (Anybody want to bet me $200???)

"From the shelf"...what is to stop Beretta (or whoever) from coming out with the KACG* ?

*(KickAssCompetitionGun)

Anyway...what is "practical" today...can change tomorrow. And, it will...unless with stiffle innovation with old-school rules and thinking.

[JFD]

I wish I knew why there seems to be such a determined effort to screw up L-10 by imposing IDPA type rules on us.

IDPA rules, when applied to UPSPA, amount to nothing more than punishment for those of us who shoot USPSA for the freedom it offers.

The rules currently allow a person to use a carry holster in any division, and at the same time place a pair of pouches behind their hipbone if they want to. They can even use concealment and utter the word "tactical" in every other sentence.

The applecart would be upset more than most non-Limited 10 shooters will ever realize if the division is changed to reflect Production/IDPA rules.

I won't shoot IDPA if it happens, but I'll certainly drop USPSA affiliation at my club and run an outlaw match in a heartbeat. I'm not going to hang around and watch USPSA turn into IDPA (unless you shoot raceguns).

[Chuck D]

All this input is great...hopefully we will get more of it.

Remember, this is only an IDEA not a policy position. The more input we get...the better of an idea we get as to where people stand. Once again, these ideas are not mine exclusively...they've been floated by various people at different times.

The practicality issue from my standpoint comes from the name of the game itself...International PRACTICAL Shooting Confederation. In my opinion...some aspect of practicality should be retained. I'm not looking for another IDPA by any far stretch of the imagination.

Besides, If Beretta for example makes a KACG that meets the criteria AND is available off the shelf to those whom want one...what's so wrong with that?

[Steve Anderson]

They already did...it's called the elite II.

Mine has a green fiber-optic front sight so I can see in PRACTICALLY any light condition

It's got a sweet-a$$ 2.75 SA break and and a 7lb DA so I can hit PRACTICALLY anything bigger than the front sight.

Were I to carry it on duty, I would use real PRACTICAL and ironically ILLEGAL in prod. 15 rd mags with almost major ammo.

Just because my gun is custom doesn't mean it isn't practical. I'd say it's more so...

This is fun as long as it stays civil.

SA

[Chuck D]

O.K. Steve....I get the point....PRACTICALLY of course.

Besides...since when did the word Practical become an "ugly" and "worthless" word?

Your right...as long as we stick to the subject at hand...this IS fun.

[vluc]

The practicality issue from my standpoint comes from the name of the game itself...International PRACTICAL Shooting Confederation.

Going to be a bad boy here...it is not PRACTICAL that countries that make up the INTERNATIONAL Practical Shooting Association want to ban handguns/firearms either....

So why a push to be more like them?

There is another agenda out there that we may not be aware of.

[BerettaRacer]

Chuck D - I do like your idea of an Open 10 division, that would open things up for other calibers besides 38 super. Without the mag capacity issue you cound have 40SW or 45 open guns and us old guys with bad eyes could have a nice dot to use.

Steve A - That sounds just like my Production Beretta, 'cept I have a red F O.

[Ron Ankeny]

A 6 inch revolver right out of the box would be forced to compete with a scoped and comped open revolver? That's a good one, lol. You are kidding right?

[Chuck D]

Vulc:

Not sure what you mean. I NEVER advocated banning anything. All I tried to do is offer what I thought was the best of several different ideas on how to improve the current divisions. The majority of these ideas come from other posts not only made by me but others as well.

There is no "agenda" here except maybe your own? But that's o.k. too...I love a good conspiracy story !

Just don't pull a muscle reaching for what simply isn't there.

Remember, It's all just ideas...made to be modified by those whom wish to do so.

My goal was to draft a proposal...especially in L10, Production and Revolver division that would create a "carry gun" atmosphere. I don't know very many people that carry a 6 inch barreled revolver so that's why I set a 5.25 inch limit. Once again...the subject was offered up for comment/debate/discussion. With that in mind...yes, I am serious, especially about the "carry gun atmosphere" proposals.

[Flexmoney]

prac·ti·cal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prkt-kl)

adj.

Of, relating to, governed by, or acquired through practice or action, rather than theory, speculation, or ideals: gained practical experience of sailing as a deck hand.

Manifested in or involving practice: practical applications of calculus.

Actually engaged in a specified occupation or a certain kind of work; practicing.

Capable of being used or put into effect; useful: practical knowledge of Japanese. See Usage Note at practicable.

Intended to serve a purpose without elaboration: practical low-heeled shoes.

Concerned with the production or operation of something useful: Woodworking is a practical art.

Level-headed, efficient, and unspeculative.

Being actually so in almost every respect; virtual: a practical disaster.

I don't know what everybody else reads into those definitions, but I don't see "limits" in there anywhere.

[rhino]

Imposing holster and mag position rules on Limited 10 is something I would fight to the bitter end. It's the reason why I chose to not shoot IDPA from its inception.

The fact that I CHOOSE to shoot with a carry holster at my hip is my business. I don't want a rule mandating it. I don't care if other Limited 10 people choose to shoot with a race holster because that is THEIR choice.

We need fewer rules, not more.

[Chuck D]

Boy this is a TOUGH crowd !

Looks like I stuck my nose in where it didn't belong.

It was FUN though.

Remember, ideas are just that....ideas.

I promise I'll keep 'em to myself next time......

Even so, your still welcome to come play in my "sandbox" anytime you wish.

[Nik Habicht]

Chuck,

I didn't like most of your ideas. I'm glad you didn't keep them to yourself though, because you made me think about the divisions again. While you didn't convince me today, tomorrow might be the day where you have an idea that the rest of us will get behind. Or you'll have an idea that'll start a daisy chain of folks modifying your idea to turn into something that we'll all be excited about. Keep talking, thinking is good for us...

[rhino]

Dude! Disagreement doesn't mean we don't appreciate your ideas . . . it just means someone disagrees with you!

I say keep sharin' 'em as you get 'em.

I think Open 10 would be cool. Dolling-up an old-school single stack super would be both fun and a lot less $$$-intensive than acquiring just the magazines for a big boy gun!

[Chuck D]

Thanks Guys....besides, you guys served a very important purpose today.

You gave my wife a much needed break, usually I babble on to HER instead.

She thanks you greatly and is willing to cook you all dinner when your in the neighborhood. Hope you like Italian food.

[vluc]

Vulc:

Not sure what you mean. I NEVER advocated banning anything. All I tried to do is offer what I thought was the best of several different ideas on how to improve the current divisions. The majority of these ideas come from other posts not only made by me but others as well.

There is no "agenda" here except maybe your own? But that's o.k. too...I love a good conspiracy story !

Just don't pull a muscle reaching for what simply isn't there.

Remember, It's all just ideas...made to be modified by those whom wish to do so.

My goal was to draft a proposal...especially in L10, Production and Revolver division that would create a "carry gun" atmosphere. I don't know very many people that carry a 6 inch barreled revolver so that's why I set a 5.25 inch limit. Once again...the subject was offered up for comment/debate/discussion. With that in mind...yes, I am serious, especially about the "carry gun atmosphere" proposals.

Sorry, ChuckD...not meaning you on any of this. Just the overall concept of some of these things...as you said...picked up from other threads. My comment on banning is in relation to the IPSC countries that do this, yet it seems IPSC is making the push for these changes. Likewise my thoughts on an agenda from elsewhere. I may be wrong and if I am I apologize in advance.

Your thought for this thread was a good one.

Like others here I am having issues with defining practical. I don't think it is practical to carry a full size pistol (example a G34 or a SIG 226). I carry a SIG 225. BUT, because it is not practical for me does not mean it is not practical for others. Flex is a big grain-fed man who probably (if he lived in a state that allowed it) could carry both of those and conceal them well.

Our sport should do like it is designed to do...make it safe while allowing flexibility, innovation and individuality in what we shoot. That and little more. Fewer rules or we provide fodder for those who do not like our game.

i think USPSA is its own unique brand of shooting sport and should be reflective of its participants.