Should USPSA Find a "Home" for the Nationals?

[chuckbradley]

Not to throw the lead pollution aside but it is a problem that all ranges face. The fact of whether it is a range we own or range we want to use its still going to come into play either way. So it shouldn't be a determining factor to throw out the idea. If we had our own range we could make sure it is handled properly and the range isnt shut down. If all the ranges get shutdown in this country then we dont have a sport or USPSA.

If people complain it may be because USPSA isnt treating this as a consumer product. The event needs to be something the members will want to attend. If they dont then USPSA management is failing to produce a product the consumer demands. If the event in itself is desirable , the location will not be a factor to the majority. You will always have a few that will be heard above everybody else. Those few will probably never be satisfied.

I dont think the membership will be paying for those that attend the Nationals anymore than they already do. In fact i contend that the cost of hosting the match remotely will be recovered by our own facility. And again this isnt just about one match but a year round facility that should be managed to support itself. The higher quality match should drive higher attendance especially as the reputation grows.

[mactiger]

If people complain it may be because USPSA isnt treating this as a consumer product. The event needs to be something the members will want to attend. If they dont then USPSA management is failing to produce a product the consumer demands. If the event in itself is desirable , the location will not be a factor to the majority. You will always have a few that will be heard above everybody else. Those few will probably never be satisfied.

I agree completely. As for a "home" range, I don't think we need to buy one, just lease it for a specific period of time each year, and have some provisions for storing props there. I know I harp on PASA, but honestly, it was purpose built for USPSA, and we do have props and knowledgeable people in the area. Leasing/renting makes sense financially, and the location and date could be set for many years--no guesswork as to when Nationals will be held. That date depends a lot right now on negotiating with whatever club/range the president is talking to. Announcing that date is also contingent on settling on a place.

That's my .02, anyway.

Troy

[chuckbradley]

Troy, I am fond of most the days I spent at PASA but it does have quite a few drawbacks. The biggest complaint I had was the shooter was treated as a second class person by the park staff. If we didnt want to hike the hills and wanted to rent a golf cart we got raked over the coals. The shuttle was great when they had it. They wont let us park up on top even though there was room for those shooting up there. One time we did it anyway and were told that if we didnt get our cars out of there they would be moved with a tractor and a hay spike. If USPSA ever leased that facility again I surely hope they dont let those same individuals treat USPSA's customers the way they did.

We will always have those kind of issues when we use somebody elses facility.

As far as it being possible financially, it just depends on the priorities of those in charge. As I said its a long term goal. Sure we dont have the capability to buy 1000 acres and build it all up the way we envision it immediately, but I say it can be done.

[carinab]

Hmmmm...Buy a range...Gee, didn't USPSA try to do that and end up selling the land? Not a good idea, IMNSHO.

Personally I think USSA can work. A late summer nationals before the "rainy" season would be ideal. Teachers and juniors could compete. It's centrally located with decent airfare. There are certainly a myriad of hotels and price ranges. Ditto for restaurants and entertainment. The owner shoots and wants to see the sport grow.

It's just a freak coincidence that the weather patterns were bad twice. I frankly have shot at Barry in very bad weather more times than I care to remember...one year I couldn't see the 50 yard targets for the standard course!

And Reno or Vegas...Yup, nearly sent my pistol off the table on a pick up stage where the table was iced over in '93. Bad weather is everywhere and is just part of the game.

Edited December 20, 2008 by carinab

[Coolduckboy]

Any reason why USSA couldn't Hold USPSA and another Nationals there? Would be interesting having two different events going on and getting to know another sport.

[mactiger]

Hmmmm...Buy a range...Gee, didn't USPSA try to do that and end up selling the land? Not a good idea, IMNSHO.

Personally I think USSA can work. A late summer nationals before the "rainy" season would be ideal. Teachers and juniors could compete. It's centrally located with decent airfare. There are certainly a myriad of hotels and price ranges. Ditto for restaurants and entertainment. The owner shoots and wants to see the sport grow.

It's just a freak coincidence that the weather patterns were bad twice. I frankly have shot at Barry in very bad weather more times than I care to remember...one year I couldn't see the 50 yard targets for the standard course!

And Reno or Vegas...Yup, nearly sent my pistol off the table on a pick up stage where the table was iced over in '93. Bad weather is everywhere and is just part of the game.

Actually, USPSA bought land for an office, not a range, and I do believe it's been sold.

FWIW, it's not the weather that's the issue at USSA, it's the range surface and drainage. It sure has stormed at PASA, but the bays were still usable. We just had to rebuild some props, and walls... Weather will be a factor everywhere, it's true, but the way the range is built has a lot to do with how usable it is.

Troy

[Charles Bond]

I like Vegas or Reno.

Tulsa is a good facility but the mud has been a problem and from what I hear the owner doesn't think its a problem so it wont be fixed.

Personally i think USPSA should purchase its own facility and use it for its own big events. Sure it may not be as attractive as a traveling destination, unless its around a place like vegas, but isnt it about the shooting? With the same facility being used year after year just think of the facilities we could build instead of tossing money away to set up a match at different venues. Not only the cost look at the quality and intensity of the props we could have? The quality of the stages and event would be at a level I dont think we have at a nationals now due to the roaming of the event.

We could have a hall for sign ups, shooters meetings, meals, prize distribution and banquets. We could build accommodations for RO's and staff. We could build covered areas for the shooters and staff.

With USPSA getting more diversified that facility could hold all kinds of matches year round. It could also host RO classes, shooting classes, training for LEO/MIL.

I also think it should be located around a big travel destination location or in the center of the country close to a major city. Most of all in a gun friendly state. Cost of land would be an issue. It would be about going to the event and not the night life.

Yes its a long term goal. Its where I think USPSA should be headed.

Let's see if I can drift this idea just a tad.

The cowboys now have their own facility and they rent it out for other events but it is not really large enough for us. Close but not quite there. They do however have the hall Chuck talks about and most all of the other facilities we would need including a vendor area without peer.

Instead of owning, maybe we need a partner. It might be doable to approach the cowboys and get them to allow us to make improvements in order for free rent for a period followed by us making some payments for rent fo them for a set period. And the cowboy range is not necessarily the only range where we could potentially do this.

The down side is location. While NM has a long shooting year, it is a long haul from most of the country.

[Coolduckboy]

I like Vegas or Reno.

Tulsa is a good facility but the mud has been a problem and from what I hear the owner doesn't think its a problem so it wont be fixed.

Personally i think USPSA should purchase its own facility and use it for its own big events. Sure it may not be as attractive as a traveling destination, unless its around a place like vegas, but isnt it about the shooting? With the same facility being used year after year just think of the facilities we could build instead of tossing money away to set up a match at different venues. Not only the cost look at the quality and intensity of the props we could have? The quality of the stages and event would be at a level I dont think we have at a nationals now due to the roaming of the event.

We could have a hall for sign ups, shooters meetings, meals, prize distribution and banquets. We could build accommodations for RO's and staff. We could build covered areas for the shooters and staff.

With USPSA getting more diversified that facility could hold all kinds of matches year round. It could also host RO classes, shooting classes, training for LEO/MIL.

I also think it should be located around a big travel destination location or in the center of the country close to a major city. Most of all in a gun friendly state. Cost of land would be an issue. It would be about going to the event and not the night life.

Yes its a long term goal. Its where I think USPSA should be headed.

Let's see if I can drift this idea just a tad.

The cowboys now have their own facility and they rent it out for other events but it is not really large enough for us. Close but not quite there. They do however have the hall Chuck talks about and most all of the other facilities we would need including a vendor area without peer.

Instead of owning, maybe we need a partner. It might be doable to approach the cowboys and get them to allow us to make improvements in order for free rent for a period followed by us making some payments for rent fo them for a set period. And the cowboy range is not necessarily the only range where we could potentially do this.

The down side is location. While NM has a long shooting year, it is a long haul from most of the country.

I don't think location (relative to state) is going to discourage major shooters from attending. The facility maybe but not general location.

[VegasOPM]

To all those talking about Vegas. There is a range with a highly motivated owner (USPSA Limited "B" shooter) and some seriously determined folks here that want to make it work. Plenty to see and do for the family. Seriously gun friendly state. What's not to love?

[Charles Bond]

To all those talking about Vegas. There is a range with a highly motivated owner (USPSA Limited "B" shooter) and some seriously determined folks here that want to make it work. Plenty to see and do for the family. Seriously gun friendly state. What's not to love?

Trees??? Those of us from the south, north and east really like shade trees.

I have not seen the range yet and look forward to shooting there one day. Vegas is always a good place to go but it is a tad "removed" for much of the membership.

[Jim Norman]

FIX USSA!

It is just about perfect. It is laid out to allow for at least 30 stages.

The airport is 15 minutes from the range.

The Hotels, all of them are within 30 minutes or LESS.

There are more places to eat than you can possibly visit is a year.

There is diversion for the down times.

In short this place works IF and it is a very large IF, they can get the range surface fixed.

It will rain anywhere USPSA decides to hold a Nationals. The wind will blow and it will get either so hot or so cold that it will be remembered as "The Year that..." I seem to remember being in Barry and reading the thermometer at the Bank by the exit of the interstate and it read 105! people were passing out on the range from the heat.

Tulsa may not be perfect, but it comes really close. Drive or fly you can get there in the time most of us have off to pursue our hobby. Move it too far West and the East suffers. Too far East and the West suffers. There is a swath of land between Tulsa, and St. Paul that is essentially the Center of the country. This area is all within about 1500 miles of anywhere in the 48 states (Sorry Hawaii and Alaska). Obviously if you live closer it is better, but as an example, Barry is about 15 hours away from me and Tulsa is more like 22 hours. I CAN make Barry in a long day, Tulsa needs an overnight. Tulsa has two or three RV parks within easy distance of the range and town, Barry has none. (Did I mention that one criteria for a match location is RV parking? With Water, Sewer and Electric?)

On Buying VS Renting a range. I would opt for a lease from a range such as USSA for a fixed period every year, We get a facility that can handle our needs for the two or three weeks a year we need it, the owner gets much needed cash. We, USPSA are not saddled with property to manage and pay for. Unless USPSA were to find a very large centrally located range and aso find a way to lease it out to say IDPA, SASS, Trap and Clay and .... for about 48 weeks a year it will be an albatross around our neck. Maybe we could use it for what, three nationals, one Area and one Section, throw in Steel Challenge and we have a maximum usage in house of about 9-12 weeks. The costs go on for an additional 40 weeks.

Let a private entity own the range. Also, if we own it, we HAVE TO go there forever. What if USPSA currently owned USSA in the conditin it is in as of the 08 Nationals? Do we go back to our own range? or do we look for a place to hold our match while the range sits? and who has to pay to fix it?

Lease, we can always walk, own and we are more than likely stuck.

Jim

[wgnoyes]

FIX USSA!

So what do you do then if USSA doesn't want to fix USSA?

[Jim Norman]

Bill,

Obviously we need to find another place. I did indicate that there is a large swath of land that satisfies a two day drive criteria. Within that area there is hopefully a range that would welcome us. The next thing as far as selecting a venue would be to center it on the shooting population, not the center of the country. There is that new range opening in Kentucky, perhaps that will be available?

Returning to PASA is not high on my list. Yes, I will go, but it is a purely shooting trip and is frankly tired.

Jim

PS, and I do think that USSA will be fixed,there is too much there to abandon. If we have trouble with it, so will all the rest that use it.

[wgnoyes]

Returning to PASA is not high on my list. Yes, I will go, but it is a purely shooting trip and is frankly tired.

Well, to me there's PASA and then there's everywhere else. But I haven't been in three years because they keep scheduling the match right at the time school starts and I can't get away, so take my venue appraisals for what they're worth. I rely on Cindy's descriptions, as she still gets to go because of her work (at Glock).

[The Antichrome]

from what I hear the owner doesn't think its a problem so it wont be fixed.

So what do you do then if USSA doesn't want to fix USSA?

Random notes:

I've shot several matches at USSA since the Nat'ls, there's been some landscape experiments with gravel going on in a few of the bays. It's obviously part of a plan to fix the problem. Remember that USSA is still in the early stages of its development plan. Maybe its just not seasoned enough yet to handle the biggest match anytime/any weather.

The new rangemaster seems like a 'get it done' kind of guy, so I expect USSA to get nothing but better.

I cant speak for USSA, but it seems that they want the place to be more like a golf course than a rock quarry or gravel pit. I'm sure they are not satisfied with a mud pit.

2009 IDPA Nat'ls are rumored to be held at USSA next Sept. so those guys will be getting their vests muddy;-)