Vince Pinto Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Hi guys, EricW asked about the Springfield XD Series pistols in another thread but, as I expect the subject might generate some discussion, I thought it best to start a new thread. The bottom line is that the Springfield XD Series (and the Croatian HS2000 on which it is based), are not approved for use in IPSC Production Division because, under IPSC's definitions, viz: "Single Action" means activation of the trigger causes a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker falls). "Double Action" means activation of the trigger causes more than a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker rises or retracts, then falls). "Selective Action" means that the handgun can be operated in either "Single Action" or "Double Action" modes. -:the subject pistols are classified as single-action-only ("SAO"), which are specifically prohibited under IPSC Production Division rules. Note that the definitions above are the criteria used by the IPSC Production Division Committee, but we have proposed that these definitions also be included in the 2004 Handgun Rulebook as Rules 8.1.5.1 to 8.1.5.3. For those interested, although the XD Series look and feel like a Glock, the striker mechanisms operate differently: 1. With a Glock, the striker is partially cocked after a round is chambered and, on action of the trigger, the striker retracts further to full-cock before it moves forward (i.e. double action). 2. With the XD Series, the striker is fully cocked after a round is chambered and, on action of the trigger, the striker merely moves forward (i.e. a single action). Note that I sent three emails to Springfield over a 10 week period to ask them for clarification that our understanding of the operation of their pistols was correct, however Springfield have not seen fit to grace us with a reply, so our decision was made on the information available to us. Although IPSC's decision is based on IPSC criteria, we also note with interest that: 3) IDPA will not allow the XD Series to participate in their SSP Division, and they are only allowed to compete in their ESP Division, whereas Glock pistols can participate in both IDPA divisions. 4) According to this article, the ATF have also classified the XD Series as SAO pistols, although we have so far been unable to independantly confirm this on the ATF website. And that's about it, folks. Please note that this article applies to IPSC - I do not now, or ever, speak for the USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Thanks Vince. I'm totally hip to the classification of the XD as a SAO pistol. What's your gut feel as to how it will be classified if the USPSA and IPSC divisions are unified? Or is it a moot point and can I expect to be able to shoot the XD in USPSA for the forseeable future? USPSA mucky mucks care to comment? BTW, I don't want to start a rules pissing match. I'm just curious, since if the XD stays USPSA Production legal, I'm probably going to jump the fence. I just don't want to invest in the platform only to get involuntarily bumped to Lim-10 due to a rules change later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 14, 2003 Author Share Posted August 14, 2003 Eric, There are currently no plans to "unify" the IPSC and USPSA Divisions, but of course the USPSA is most welcome to join the rest of the world by adopting the international rules I also cannot comment on the current or future USPSA classification of the XD Series but, if you want to be an International Road Warrior Pistolero, then "get a Glock (17) and lose that nickel plated, sissy pistol" (thanks, Tommy Lee Jones), and you can shoot every IPSC and USPSA Division except Revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Vince, don't you know Americans do thing our way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 IIRC, the Springfield XD was allowed in USPSA production division BECAUSE it WAS on the IPSC list of approved guns. If that is the criteria that John Amidon was using, then perhaps it already is disallowed in USPSA production.... Hmmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 I don't know any "USPSA mucky mucks". Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 What's your gut feel as to how it will be classified if the USPSA and IPSC divisions are unified? Or is it a moot point and can I expect to be able to shoot the XD in USPSA for the forseeable future? USPSA mucky mucks care to comment? I think I met a USPSA mucky-muck once, but... I needed a shower, afterwards ;-) At present, the Springfield XD is legal in USPSA Production division (it was similarly in the IPSC list until recently). There is a fair amount of discussion about the divisions among the USPSA Board. At this point, there is no plan that I am aware of to unify the IPSC and USPSA divisions. My personal opinion is that there are enough differences that it would be a massive undertaking, so my *guess* is that it is a ways off. As far as whether or not to purchase? Don't know what to tell you. It is conceivable that the USPSA division rules will change in the future, but I have no idea whether such changes would affect the XD or not. I *do* know that any such changes will be published well ahead of time, and that most people on the Board are generally opposed to making changes that cause currently-legal equipment to become no-longer-legal. Vince's last point is especially valid - if you have any interest in shooting international competitions, don't choose a gun that is *only* legal under the USPSA rules. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Bruce, does that qualify you as a "USPSA muckey muck" since you replied? Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 I propose to make the listing on the IPSC approved gun list a one-way street: If it's on there, noone can take it off again. To have someone purchase a gun for prod Div and *then* tell them the listing was in error and sorry, can't use it, is a sure way to alienate & lose members... I can only urge USPSA to keep it approved. And no, I don't own one... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Bruce, does that qualify you as a "USPSA muckey muck" No, I just play one on TV ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Run n Gun Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Gary, On the slim chance that you really don’t know; Bruce Gary is the Area 1 (USPSA) Area Director. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 I suspect he knows, as Gary Stevens is actually the Area-5 (USPSA) Area Director. Of course, he *is* pretty old, so maybe he forgot [big grin] Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 I fixed your wagons. Now everybody knows who both of you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Flex, Their taglines were supposed to read "A1 Mucky Muck" and "A5 Mucky Muck." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Thanks a lot, Flex. So much for 'stealth mode' ;-) Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Bruce, We all appreciate that you, Gary & Vince are brave enough to hang out in any shooting forum. (I see Arnie around every so often too.) Mucky-Mucks or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 16, 2003 Author Share Posted August 16, 2003 Flex, I have absolutely no idea what a "mucky-muck" is but, dammit, if I'm one of them, then we're gonna form a Union Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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