Magazine capacity and rules for 3-gun

[Tom Freeman]

It pains me when I see some matches put stuff in the rules like "No more than 30 round mags in Tactical, No Betas, no jungle clipping mags together, ect."

Open guns can be run with big tank brakes, multiple optics and bi-pods. Tactical division can not use them and Limited can not use them or optics. For the love of god, just leave it at that. Let me figure out how to feed the damn gun. KISS

[ShooterSteve]

I can see how the USPSA went to 10rd limits for production class, as that was the law at that time, and they actually got a lot of new members, so it worked out pretty good and a lot of new shooters came to the sport. I feel it is different with three gun. Most of the people are a llittle more hardcore about shooting, and you aren't really making a class, so that someone can shoot a gun they allready have. You can get reasonably priced mags in 5,10,20,30, and 40 rd capacities. Heck you can even get NINE rounders from Colt. Try taking a new gun with factory 9rd mags to your first match and find out everything is set up for the current 10rd ban. The best I can figure is they were afraid some one would stuff more that 10rds in one during the ban, (oh my). Go up in price a little and you can get a little more capacity from DPMS, or add a Pmag. Anyway, what I'm saying is this stuff is easily affordable, for about everyone, so it shouldn't be a cost issue. Moving on, isn't some of the fun of this sport being able to figure out how a stage will work best for you? I'm tall, so I will monopod off of a 40 rounder. He is shorter so he can monopod better off a 30 rounder, and great for him. Some one else doesn't want to monopod at all, and wants to use a 20 rounder to start, and then do a mag change on the transition to gain some numbers. Great for them, BUT, we can work it out to do what is best for us, as each stage needs. It is just way less fun when I go to a match, and get told, " Well, you have to do it this way, and you can only but this many rounds and and blah blah blah. Let me figure out the problem within the guidlines of the stage!!! I see that Ft Benning has that dang swinging bridge for the rifle stage again, so forget the mag cinch, I've got to figure out how to tape two beta mags back to back!!

[kdmoore]

Alot of common responses in s steve's thread, so I'll respond to it.

First of all, I think it's about seperating classes. If you are going to have open class, it ought to have advantages. Open means pistols allow brakes, optics and capacity advantages. Open means shotguns have extra capacity, optics and brakes. Pretty strange that there's minimal optic advantages, minimal brakes advantages, NO Capacity advantage, and minimal bipod advantage (many just monopod off mags instead of lugging a bipod around.

For me, it boils down to encouraging an open class, or discouraging it.

I can see how the USPSA went to 10rd limits for production class, as that was the law at that time, and they actually got a lot of new members, so it worked out pretty good and a lot of new shooters came to the sport. I feel it is different with three gun.

and they didn't repeal it, it's not about a ban limit, or the law. It's ok to limit capacity in both shotgun and pistol, so why not rifle?

Most of the people are a llittle more hardcore about shooting, very short-sited position, keeping a 20 or 30 round division on the other hand feels like it would cater to those in ban states, and maybe to all of us in short order ...

and you aren't really making a class, so that someone can shoot a gun they allready have. You can get reasonably priced mags in 5,10,20,30, and 40 rd capacities. Heck you can even get NINE rounders from Colt. Try taking a new gun with factory 9rd mags to your first match and find out everything is set up for the current 10rd ban. The best I can figure is they were afraid some one would stuff more that 10rds in one during the ban, (oh my). Go up in price a little and you can get a little more capacity from DPMS, or add a Pmag. Anyway, what I'm saying is this stuff is easily affordable, for about everyone, so it shouldn't be a cost issue. you can get reasonable priced 30 round mags for glocks, others too. Wouldn't cost much more to extend shotguns further than is common today. It's not about costs in other divisions, cost should not matter in this discussion either

Moving on, isn't some of the fun of this sport being able to figure out how a stage will work best for you? I'm tall, so I will monopod off of a 40 rounder. He is shorter so he can monopod better off a 30 rounder, and great for him. Some one else doesn't want to monopod at all, and wants to use a 20 rounder to start, and then do a mag change on the transition to gain some numbers. Great for them, BUT, we can work it out to do what is best for us, as each stage needs. It is just way less fun when I go to a match, and get told, " Well, you have to do it this way, and you can only but this many rounds and and blah blah blah. Let me figure out the problem within the guidlines of the stage!!! I see that Ft Benning has that dang swinging bridge for the rifle stage again, so forget the mag cinch, I've got to figure out how to tape two beta mags back to back!!problem solving always happens within the current rules. None of that goes away with limiting mag capacity, if anything it means you have more meaty problems to work thru. i.e. do I run out of my way for a good support for my rifle, or do I try to shoot unsupported where I am...if you are into solving meaty problems then limiting mags can give you much more to think thru.

If there wasn't an open division I think I'd just be for working mag changes into our stages, I think it's a valuable skill to have and emphasize. I wouldn't care if it was done by allowing mandated downloaded starting mags, or mandating a mag change at shooters choice, or something. But for me, it comes down to supporting the idea of an open class. A significant portion of a match is with rifle work, so it's more important than ever.

But if the change is going to be made, I think most matches need to stand together, and it needs to happen fast. Changes are hard to make (that's where a lot of the discontention comes from) and having radically different rule sets in different major matches is NOT in the sports best interest...

Andy, have you ever considered trying to build a consensus amongst the major matches? Would be hard, but would be very worthwhile!

Edited November 28, 2008 by kdmoore

[jobob]

Again, there are reason for mag capacity limitations in pistol and shotgun - because of the practical roots of the sport, and the need and desire for many to use "practical" guns. Tactical rifles are a different matter. A scoped rifle with a small compensator is entirely practical as a real world gun (a 'real world' gun would have a flash suppressor instead of a comp, but what md wants to examine every flash hider to ensure they aren't comps, so it's easier to just allow the small comps). Such a "real" rifle would not be limited in mag capacity. With the rifle no one is concerned about concealment, and high cap mags don't ruin the handling characteristics of the gun, like hugely extended shotgun mag tubes. IMHO, the only match that is truly honest in this respect is the MGM Ironman, where in Scoped Tactical division one gun can be Open, and virtually everyone chooses the rifle as their designated open gun. I use my regular tactical rifle, but only because I don't want to invest in making it, or the shotgun, a truly open gun.

You think the tactical rifle is almost identical to an Open rifle? I think there is a LOT of difference without resorting to arbitrarily limiting magazine size, or prohibiting cinched mags, or prohibiting using the mags as a rest. An Open gun, with two optics which allows a good long range scope on top, is a HUGE advantage. The Tactical rifle shooter, with one optic, is trying to find the best compromise optic which will not be perfect for either short or long range. So, yes, there are substantial differences between the divisions. You don't need to resort to arbitrary and capricious rule changes to exagerate the differences, unless, of course, match directors feel the need to make new rules in order feel important. But thats a different matter.

[ShooterSteve]

I think it's odd that I was listed as being very short sighted. I gave specific examples of how different people could do things differently to best suit their needs in the challenging stages of three gunning. I don't feel that I'm short sighted about it at all, you do whatever you want with in the rules to make a stage run the best for you. My point about cost, is that today, almost all hi cap AR mags are affordable, so throw that argument out. As to being "fair" to states that have a capacity ban? I honestly feel bad for them. However, if you live in that state, obviously you will be limited by law on mag capacity, but by all means STILL go out and run your stages and events the best way that you can within the law. I would love to have a big mag for my Glock before they get outlawed again, but don't forget the "practical" part of practical shooting. What I DON'T WANT TO SEE, are stages that make every single shooter do the exact same thing. No creativity and just boring as crap. I don't want to fit into a cookie cutter mold, and I don't care to go to a magazine changing contest. I can do that at home without spending a ton of money on match fees, hotel rooms gas, food etc... however we would save money on ammo!! I've spent a ton on my equipment, and I love to shoot it as much as I can, and that is my plan. If you feel it is fair to start with 10rds or so in your mag, please, be my guest...

[kurtm]

Let,s look at "growing a sport" through the eyes of another rifle sport and draw some conclutions. We are going to look at Hi-Power. This was back when the service rifle was an 1903-A1 Springfeild so you could shoot 5 rounds and of course had to reload to shoot the next 5 rounds for the 10 round string of fire...COOL!. Then we adopted the M1 Garand as our service rifle. It held 8 rounds so we changed Hi-Power to "allow" the shooter to shoot 8 rounds..then use a very specialised 2 round en-block clip to reload the rifle to complete the mandatory 10 rounds. Flash forward to 1956 we adopted the M-14 it held 20 rounds in the magazine....BUT we NEVER would allow a Hi-Power shooter to do away with the 8 round limit...because some folks MIGHT still be shooting an M1 and that is all they can load...so to be fair an 8 round limit was still in effect. Flash forward to 1964 we adopted aN M-16 it also had Pleanty of rounds in the mag...but still 8 round limit. Flash...around 1969 we got 30 rounds for the M-16...still a 8 round limit. Flash...ALMOST 40 years latter still an 8 round limit Might still be a few M1s competeing...well I sure haven't seen one on the line since about 1995...but still an 8 round limit...I won't get into single loading, which was NEVER really in the Hi-Power rules, but became morphed into the whole deal. Now since 1995 or about 13 years ago, the attendance of Hi-Power really started dropping. Flash.... 2000 the Military adopted an optic device...NO not in Hi-Power!! so we now shoot Hi-Power with rules from 1936 which Limit the shooter to some really crazy constrains. Attendance continues to drop as the sport isn't keeping up with the NOW technology. If we limit 3-gun...EVEN THOUGH WE DON"T SHOOT RIFLE ONLY MATCHES WHERE WE WOULD HAVE VAST DIFFERENCES IN DIVISIONS. we are following the same old road as Hi-Power. This is 2008 not 1969! We have bigger magazines, Hell even the Beta C mag has a natonal stock number and has been used by the military. Are we to STAGNATE our sport as well? If you want to test reloads make some standards ( USPSA ) Mandate it ( Out Law ) but why do we want to put an artificial limit on capacity?

[kellyn]

Good post, Kurt.

[jobob]

Yes it is! I agree entirely.

[kdmoore]

OK, let me restate. I don't support going to very old capacities. 30 rounds is where most of today's rifles are used, seems like the most popular point for the most popular class in rifle. I'd start there. (but I think we'll be at a tactical 10 or 20 round limit if the worst case scenarios with our political leaders comes about.) I don't want to "test reloads", but differentiate open by giving it a reload advantage.

We've learned a from the history of USPSA, no need to relearn it. Give open class a reload, porting and optics advantage.

Corollary: Allow too much and the beginners won't come. 10 round limited pistols are where a majority of new shooters come (IDPA and production).

SS,

The comment about short sighted wasn't personal, just only to point out that we are making rules decisions with today's laws in mind, and those from the most free states. IMO, Allowing mags where NO RELOAD is needed leads to "stages that make every single shooter do the exact same thing". Put a reload in if you want to PROMOTE problem solving and individuality.

Jobob, The huge optic is nice for long range stages, I just think the open advantage should be more. Afterall, there are a ton of matches where longest range is 100 yds. (so open is minimally an advantage)

I just don't want to go down the "tactical name means X" route... it's backwards way to create rules (IMO). But, if tactical means what most RW "operators" do, then it's 30 rounders with very stable, and low-ish powered optics.

I go back to .... IF the powers that be felt that mag restrictions were a compelling idea (follows the path we take with pistols and shotguns, give's separation/life to the open class, makes entry into the sport a LITTLE less daunting), then it ought to be done across the board.

[busyhawk]

Ok,

Now if I get this straight...(we will talk rifle only for this is what this thread is all about)

Tactical Iron: (old school, KurtM this is all about you man:-))

20 round magazines max

No comp/Flash suppressor ect.

Iron sight only

Factory offering like Production Pistol, no colapsible stock, only grip tape on the pistol grip and you may change your sights within limitations, no magazine wells, no large mag releases, no external modifications...

Tactical Optics:

30 round magazines

1" comp (dia)

One optic with no option for an Iron on the side...it is called Tactical Optics right?

Magazine well

Colapsible stock

Extended mag release

Open:

Any magazines/drum/backpack/truck load full of ammo

Any comp/tank brake

Any optics, iron sights/Laser designator/auto sighter ect.

Any bi/tripod you want...OPEN IS OPEN...NO LIMITS!

All for the sake of making a difference between guns???...I say make the stage describe how the advantage will go to what gun! I still like old school! Set a stage where a 100 round drum is not an advantage! Give room to reload on the move without targets, ect.

As a Tactical Optics shooter I like the option to shoot my C-Mag like at both SMM3G and Ruby Mt. 2008. They both had incline walls that a C-Mag, having a lower profile, was the ducks nuts where if you ran a 20 round you might not have enough ammo and a 30 round was in your way. Did the magazine capacity give some an advantage, NO, but the low profile did. I like to have the option but if that means I had to go to Open then I guess I will have to shoot Open:-)

Just like another shooting sport...I get penilities all the time for no retention of my magazines even though the magazine is empty...I live with the penilities, I don't get all upset but the SOs don't like how I do it. It is for the fun and when that is compromised I will stop playing. Remember, it is just a game/sport and I love the passion some of you give to our sport! It is the shooters that make the sport fun.

Maybe this should go to another thread of who likes what in TI,TO, and Open in each weapon system...

Scott

[jobob]

Scott, you always have a good way of saying things!

[jobob]

The thought occurs to me, that if we are trying really hard to draw distinctions between divisions, then why are Tactical and Limited shotguns identical. Perhaps the limited (tactical iron) shotgun should be limited to an 18 or 20 inch barrel with a magazine limit of 5 or 6 rounds. Maybe 12 ga. only, no semiautos and no sights, just a bead up front. And then the reloads. Since Open uses sg speedloaders, let's limit limited/ti shooters to relaoding from the belt. Oh, wth, let's thow em a bone and let them have a bandolier! That would draw a pretty good distinction, wouldn't it? We can't have 2 guns the same between divisions, now, can we? This is beginning to be fun! I can feel the power I have by thinking up new hoops for the shooters to jump through! Yep, I'm md material!

You guys play with that one awhile as I cogitate on other restrictions we can place on shooters.

[EkuJustice]

I say if its not broke dont try and fix it. I see the big difference in 3 gun as the open guys have optics on the pistols, more rounds and speedloaders and optics in the shotgun, and bigger comp and multiple optics on the rifle as well as a bipod if they want to use it. The pistol and rifle competitions are more of a shooting contest, the shotgun is more of a loading contest. There is a pretty big advantage in open at the shoots with the long shots when they can run a highpower scope on the gun and a dot beside it for the up close stuff where the tactical optics guys use their one scope for all and make due or use irons on the side.

Busyhawk: Some of the problems I see with your Tactical Iron Idea is the rifle would end up being more of a "specialized" gun than the tactical optics gun. Around here I would say there are 20 to 1 ration of collapsible to fixed stocks in any of the gun shops around and I am not sure the last time I saw a fixed stock gun in a couple of stores. SInce fixed stocks are more stable than collapsible what would be the point in banning the collapsible stocks. No compensator or flash hider. Good luck trying to find many guns around here that are not threaded barrels and come with a flash hider or compensator from the factory. The only time I ever see one is if it is a old "ban" gun someone traded in. Also what do you determine for "factory" as far as guns go. In production guns they come from the factory a certain way for the most part. With AR15s, there are so many different factory configurations out there and alot of places factory build the gun with whatever parts you want, free float tubes, match triggers etc. If the goal is to make tactical iron more of a "run what ya got" similar to production then the the restrictions would negate that if the guy wants to shoot his AR he got at the gun shop that has an A2 Flash Supressor and a collapsible stock like most of them have now a days. So now he would need to replace his stock with a fixed stock and get a thread cover for the barrel(is that an external mod?) in order to have a gun he can use for the more basic of the divisions.

[busyhawk]

Ok Eku, you got me...

I was just trying to stir the pot on how to make the classes different. I am with you brother...it is not broke so...let's not limit the magazine cap to just 30 rounds for the Tactical Optics is my point!

Scott

[Yankee Dog]

I vote no limitation. Hey folks it all about FUN. And if I own a Beta, then I want to have fun using it. If I show up to a match with a piece of equipment only to find out that I cant use it then I get pissed off. Piss me off enough and I stop showing up. Let me have lot of fun and you have me hooked for life. And for some folks using the fancy equipment is fun.

I really dont have a problem letting folks use them even in limited. The optics is where the advatage lies between the classes. Mag capacity doesnt really make much difference. Few stages require more than a 30 anyway and there is alway room for a reload somewhere. Personally I dont want to haul that heavy pig around anyway. But it you want to feel free.

Its all about choices. Let folks make them.

Yankee Dog