howardw Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I noticed something interesting today at the range. I was shooting at IDPA targets from 25 to 50yds, and was actually shooting quite well, for me anyway. (I’m a low level IDPA SSP Master, Glock 34.) . When shooting at 50yds freestlye I was averaging splits around .7 to .8 of a second, and was keeping the shots pretty consistantly in the A zone or just outside it, but at least one shot of a pair was in the A zone for each string. I don't normally shoot at 50, most of my training being 25 yds and in. Anyway, I'm not sure how I was doing it. My sight picture was so dynamic it was almost like my unconscious was doing the shooting. I decided to shoot groups at the same target freestyle, taking as long as necessary to make each shot, and my groups actually opened up. The gun seemed to move too much, and I couldn't get a good sight picture. The process seemed fraught with indecision. Has anyone ever experienced this before? Any ideas on how to use this observation to improve my shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I'm not sure how I was doing it. My sight picture was so dynamic it was almost like my unconscious was doing the shooting. howard, That pretty much answers your question, although not in any sort of logical or tangible way. It's absolutely incredible what the purely observing, non-interfering, mind of attention can do, if allowed to. I'd guess, when you slowed down, the "controlling mind" emerged and trying began, and thereby you "lost" the active, fluid perfection of "witnessing awareness." One of the hardest things to overcome as a (standing) group shooter is to learn how to let go of the mind's tendency to want the gun to STOP before releasing the shot. Instead, imagine the TARGET is moving in the same manner as your natural hold, and that your gun is rock-solid, like it was mounted in a bench vice. Now what can you do? While maintaining sight alignment, ignore all movement and release the shot without disturbing "what you have." be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardw Posted July 31, 2003 Author Share Posted July 31, 2003 Thanks for the reply Brian. Since viewing your interview on Burkett's DVD I've been trying to work more accuracy work into my training. And it has been paying off. I've also been trying to work on calling my shots. The thing is, shooting is such a strange thing. Learning to call your shots is essential, but is this ability in some ways something that should eventually be transcended? I mean, if you are doing something well in "The Now" with no real recollection of what you've done after you do it, how does calling your shots work into it? Here is the rub: if I can consistently hit at 50 yds then I feel I’m shooting rather accurately. And this is also reflected in closer in shots. I think I can shoot ok. But I still don’t know if I am calling my shots or not. I don’t know if I’m blinking or not. I don’t know if I’m really seeing the front sight lift or not. I have this experience on occasion where I’m shooting and when I sense that my finger is pulling the trigger with the intent of firing the gun I see the sights pointed at the C or D zone. So at the same time I’ll start to move the gun toward the A zone and when I score the target the shot is good. (Is this driving the gun?) The point is I have no recollection of seeing the sights pointed at the A zone. So I must not have been looking at the sights when the gun fired? Do you see what I'm trying to get at? I hope so, because I’m not quite sure I do. Thanks, Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Being able to hit where you want is vital. Knowing where the bullet will hit by reading the visual input (sights) is also vital. Sounds like you are all over the first, and nearly have the second. You may have a bit on blinking going on just as the shot fires. You can work thru that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardw Posted July 31, 2003 Author Share Posted July 31, 2003 Flex, I definitively agree that knowing is the key. The problem I'm having is I don't know what "constitutes" knowing in this context? Is it a special seeing or feeling, or is it something that can only be verified after the fact, i.e. during the scoring? Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardw Posted July 31, 2003 Author Share Posted July 31, 2003 I mean it's very rare that my shots go so far astray that they are D shots. I call most of my shots good. But that may just be because most of my shots are good, not because I called them as such. A lot of times I'll call a shot bad, and it will be good. That is another indicator that my sub is doing the shooting, not me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Howard, I shoot d's from time to time, but calling my shot allow me to make them up instantly. I have had several people say why did you triple tap that target? My standard reply is, "I didn't triple it, I just shot 2 good shots and one bad one." If you call a shot bad and it isn't, then you didn't call the shot. I wish I could call all my shots, but unless I am totally focused I can't. The other day I could call only about 40% of my shots. Last night I called 95%. I need to get over taking shots for granted and call each one, all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 howardw, Calling the shot is completely different from hitting the target. You should be able to take a piece of paper with a diagram of the target on it, and...after each shot...mark on the diagram where the bullet impacted the target. Then, when you go down range to score...your hits should correspond with the diagram. Sounds like you are blinking to me. You need to watch the front sight. See it lift out of the notch. The standard drill for this is the just shoot toward the berm...no target...don't try to hit anything. You want a 100% sight focus. Try to watch the front sight thru it recoil arc. See the relationship of the front sight to the rear as the shot fires and the front sight lifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Calling the shot, is knowing where it went. Just saying it was good because nothing went wrong, is not it. It's not special seeing. It is the lack of not seeing. Where were your eyes when you started the shot? Whatever vision is good enough to put the shot into the target, is good enough to call the shot, if you are still looking when the gun fires. If you are just seeing enough to try and center your shots on the cardboard, don't expect to call hits with much precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 I found a PDF file: http://mclaacdet1049.org/Rifle-Pistol_Team...anshipguide.pdf Look at page 17, the images under Relationship of the Sights. If you call the shot, you will see any errors as Angular Shift of the sights. Calling is seeing & knowing that these error are present when the bullet leaves the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Is it a special seeing or feeling, or is it something that can only be verified after the fact, i.e. during the scoring? I wouldn't think of it as any "special" seeing or feeling - it is just complete, total seeing of the how the exact sight alignment is positioned on the target at the instant the shot fires. All the information concerning where the bullet went is contained in that instant of seeing. At first, you may remember that "instant of seeing" as like a camera shutter taking a snapshot of the above. Later, with experience, you may only remember or trigger on a snapshot that was "unacceptable" out of a "fluid string of acceptable snapshots." A lot of times I'll call a shot bad, and it will be good. That is another indicator that my sub is doing the shooting, not me... I'd say in that case, you didn't see what you needed to see. Be careful of concluding that it is your "sub" doing the shooting. I'd say you just got lucky. ;) And the reason I made that (smartass, in jest) remark is that if your sub IS doing the shooting - you will (or should be able to) see it. I've seen my clearly-intending-mind do some incredible things in order to hit certain targets, and while it may come as a shock as to what happened (when thought about later), I always see it. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardw Posted July 31, 2003 Author Share Posted July 31, 2003 Well, I don't think it's luck cause it happens so much. I guess what is really happening is I have learned how to make hits by approximating where the sights will be in relation to the target by the sight picture I have before the gun fires or I blink, whichever comes first. But sometimes I just don't know. Making certain difficult shots, repeatedly, without knowing exactly how I did it makes me kind of wonder if there isn't something more than luck going on. I guess I'll just keep on shooting and trying to see more and more and take that where it leads me. Thanks for the input everyone. And thanks, Flex, for the link. This is an interesting manual that I haven't seen before. I'll check it out. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Shoot steel. It will take years or thousands of rounds shooting paper to become skilled at calling your shoots. Your "sub" needs to have instant positive feedback to get programmed. Your "sub" is a powerful tool or it will screw with you if you try to figure it out while looking at paper after the fact. "BE FAST, BE ACCURATE, BE THE BEST" ROGERS SHOOTING SCHOOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardw Posted August 1, 2003 Author Share Posted August 1, 2003 Good point, Humphrey. I just wish I had facilities like that around here. It's mostly paper for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixote Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I've been shooting competitively off and on for almost ten years, and am just now learning the "right" way to do things (calling shots, etc.) I'm reading Brian's Book, and devouring the forum topics also. I just wanted to add my thanks flex for the .pdf link to the Army Manual. Great Stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I don't know if this relates, but I noticed a feeling that arises every time I read this thread, and it relates to confidence. I remember arriving at a particular sporting stand some years ago, and realizing I had never seen the type of shot that was being thrown there before. I had no clue what to do. Then I remember my coach's words in my mind - "_Look_ at the bird." As I started shooting, I realized that even though I was "looking at the bird," down deep, I had no confidence that I could break that target, so I didn't hit one. I knew, that if I had "something to fall back on," like having broke a similar target before, I would've had a much greater chance at least hitting a target or two. What I'm getting at is with a pistol, this "falling back on" is calling the shot by reading the sight picture the moment the shot breaks. Now I realize this information is much easier to get with a pistol because you have those handy sights to look at, whereas on a shotgun, you're looking right at the target, and your peripheral vision is aware of where your muzzle is in a vast region of space. If I have no confidence regarding what I need to see to successfully execute a difficult shot IN COMPETITION, I probably won't make the shot. Which is why it's important to train good visual habits. Probably few enjoy training "in the world of possibilities" more than me, (being "Mr. ultimate experience seeker"), but in the stressful, anxiety ridden world of competition, it's nice to know - before the targets are scored. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 When I started shooting pistols it was in precision matches shot one handed. I was advised to shoot air-pistol to learn the basics of calling shots and holding through the shot. In those days the air pistols were low velocity and there was a substantial time gap between the release of the trigger and the exit of the bullet from the barrel which made it essential to hold through the shot and to watch the sights AFTER the trigger released. This was possible because there was relatively no recoil. In air pistol events calling shots is a matter of inches. When IPSC shooters refer to calling shots is it “first shot was an A and the second a B” or “first shot was 2” left of A-centre and the second 3” right of A-centre? In my experience the recoil of the large calibre handgun complicates the whole issue and I find I still have trouble reliably calling shots. There is still a small time gap from trigger release to exit of the projectile from the barrel and a slight trigger jerk in this time would be concealed by the recoil. I have been spending a great deal of time shooting freestyle 24 shot groups at 25 yards with the object being all shots in the A zone. My best groups are achieved when I follow Brian’s advice of watching the front sight rise and fall. With 45ACP barrel jump, this is not so easy and requires concentration to make the eye move to follow the sight in it’s path, but doing so focuses entirely on the sight and everything else recedes into the background. However I sometimes spray shots that I call as good and put these down to either blinking or loss of concentration resulting in poor trigger control or looking through the sights rather than at them. Thanks to all for their contribution to this very informative thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 When IPSC shooters refer to calling shots is it “first shot was an A and the second a B” or “first shot was 2” left of A-centre and the second 3” right of A-centre? It's the latter. It's knowing exactly where the bullet went, not just which scoring zone it went into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted August 2, 2003 Share Posted August 2, 2003 To call rapid-fire shots from a heavy recoil handgun within inches is an awesome skill indeed, and one to which I will continue to aspire. I found the advice by Brian and Wide45 on "seeing" particularly helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 It's funny, I spent some time with a couple folks on the phone today, and both asked almost identical "calling" questions. So I'll ramble on a little more. The first thing you must train yourself to do, and I said train because this does not happen naturally, is to keep your eye(s) open AND seeing DURING the entire time the gun is firing. You must do this so you can see this: The exact relationship between the front and rear sight, and the relationship of that relationship to the target, at the instant the gun fires. Seeing AND responding to this "visual snapshot," either by confidently doing nothing or confidently firing another shot, is what's meant by calling the shot. It's more difficult, because of the "anticipation factor," to learn the above when shooting slowfire, freestyle groups. For this reason try this: Aim into the backstop at nothing in particular, (avoiding the tendency to shoot at a rock or dirt clod), and looking right at the front sight, begin firing (about a 10 shot string) in a steady rhythm, maybe a shot every 3/4 to one second or so. Don't try to see or do anything special, just become comfortable with looking right at the gun while it is firing. Just watch it go up and down, up and down, over and over. Once you become comfortable with looking right at the gun while it is firing, make an effort to "remember" how it feels to "look" like this, then apply the same manner of looking with a target behind your gun, while shooting a bit slower. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Then I remember my coach's words in my mind - "_Look_ at the bird." see the target, see the center of the target, see the presise pin-point center of the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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