Powder Die Funnel Dragging On Casing

[Mockingbird]

Just set up new Dillon 650, went very well.

However, my powder die, specifically the funnel, seems to be draggin very hard on the casing on its way down. Powder is getting in just fine, all other stations functioning with hangup or drag.

Is it a break-in issue?

I am using Dillon dies, and new Winchester .357 brass.

What say ye?

[EricW]

It's not you, it's the funnel. You have to polish the bejeezus out of it after which it will be fine. A buffing wheel and rouge worked great on mine. This is a new phenomena btw. I didn't have to polish any of my Dillon handgun funnels circa mid-90's, so something has changed in their production process.

[Kruzr]

New brass will tend to stick on the powder funnel. After you shoot it a couple of times the mouth gets "burnished" and it will be smoother. You may also want to try some Hornady One-Shot lube. A quick spray on the brass does wonders.

[Doggorloader]

Had the same problem. Both the 45 ACP and 44 Mag funnels had rough tool marks and actual chatter mrks from the turning or grinding process they use. I took them to work and chucked them up in a lathe and lapped them with diamond lap to a mirror finish and a real nice slip fit on resized brass and it has made a big difference in the amount of force required on the handle. Neck tension on the 45 seems to be more consistant as well. IMO I think they should come from the factory this way.

[Mockingbird]

Well, I guess I'm glad I'm not alone with the issue, but I am a little disappointed that I'd need to fiddle around with the funnel.

For dies as expensive as Dillon's, I expect a lot more.

[dillon]

New brass in straightwall handgun calibers will tend to drag when pulling it off the expander funnel. The predominant cause is that new brass has undergone a solvent rinse, which leaves it very dry, and a final tumbling, which tends to lightly roll the cse mouths inward. After one firing, the carbon residue left inside the case is a sufficient lubricant, and the case mouth is blown out straight. In our experience, this is more noticeable in larger calibers, and longer cases, as the mechanical leverage (the point in the stroke where the case is pulled out of the funnel) is reduced, and larger caliber cases have more surface contact area.

Funnel material,finish callout and heat treating hasn't changed for years and years.

[Mockingbird]

Dillon--thanks for the information. I will run some used brass tonight and see if it helps.

[EricW]

Funnel material,finish callout  and heat treating hasn't changed for years and years.

Dillon,

I know you guys know your sh*t, but this is one area where we'll have to agree to disagree. You might not have changed your specs, but something is different in the manufacturing process. I thought people were out to lunch when I heard about their powder funnels dragging. I had not had any problems with the 9mm and 45 conversions I bought many years ago, but I just bought a setup in 44 mag that did *exactly* what people were describing and polishing the funnel fixed the issue. I had to do the same thing to a newer 40 funnel as well. We're probably talking about a very small dimensional variation, but it seems to be a real one nonetheless. I think the polishing probably just negates the dimensional difference - I'm guessing it's 0.0005" or less.

FWIW, I had sticking issues regardless of the condition of the brass.

E

[Edited to fix missing decimal place.]

Edited July 22, 2003 by EricW

[warpspeed]

I'm with EricW on this one.

A couple of my older sets form Dillion work great - 45 acp & 9mm

My new 40 S&W, stuck like a mother with once fired & new

I put it in the drill press, spun at low speed and polished with jewlers rouge to a bright shine! now, only the virgin brass sticks and only every so slight.

[Ironman]

I have had the same problem. I really noticed it when I got the EGW 40 cal sizing die. I use 0000 steel wool to polish it up.

Jim

[Doggorloader]

Before I lapped my powder funnels the finish was not what I would expect to keep the brass from gaulling on the surface of the diameter which is typical with brass even with cutting tools. My 45 ACP funnel had both concentric tool mark rings and chatter that had to go or it would pick up brass (gaul) and create excessive drag every time. The 44 mag had only tool marks but deeper. It happened with new or old brass. Those funnels should be 8 micro max on the finish call out to make a better product. Believe it.

[warpspeed]

Another issue to be careful of is over expanding the casemouth.

Only go so far as necessary to get the bullet to slip in w/o shaving any brass/copper/lead from the bullet.

[ErikW]

I just got 5K once-fired 40 brass and an EGW/Lee sizing die and sticking is a big problem.

[dillon]

Current callout on the prints for pistol funnels is for a 20 micro finishon the expander portion. FWIW

[EricW]

Dillon,

FWIW, I don't think anyone is saying that you changed your specs. I *am* pretty sure that your subcontractor *has* changed their production process(es). Too many people are having to rework what was a trouble-free component until recently.

[Doggorloader]

A 20 micro isn't terrible but is more of a machined finish and may allow tool marks that hang up and lead to gaulling. An 8 micro is a standard ground finish which would be probably a great improvement and also easily polished for those who would still like to tinker.

I loaded 200 rounds last night 45 ACP with brand new Winchester brass and the newly polished funnel and it worked beautifully. Can't argue with what works.

[Joe D]

Dillon, there is an old saying that applies to vendors and employees. I have found it to be very true. "People do what you inspect, not what you expect". I too have noticed the afore mentioned problem with my case expander in 9mm, .40 and 45ACP. The problem seems to be more prevalent in .40.

Purchasers of your products should not have to complete your manufacturing process.

[Mockingbird]

Excellent follow up here. I am just back from trip and will run some used brass (finally) tonight to see results.

If that fails to remedy problem, would the steel wool route be my most efficient? I don't have a machine shop at my disposal, but do have simple tools (drill, vise, some mechanical ability).

Thanks

[EricW]

Don't use steel wool. Use Flitz, Wenol, or a similar metal polish with a soft, cotton cloth. You could try using your drill to speed up the process by spinning the funnel, being careful not to gouge anything up.

[Doggorloader]

Found an interesting bit of info concerning this problem on the Starline Brass website www.starlinebrass.com.

Click on product info and descriptions and then scroll down to MFAQ on reloading new brass and it's

under #2.

Would be interested to hear

comments.

[Mockingbird]

Interesting info from Starline. I will paste it here to save folks the trip:

2.) Why is it very hard to get expander and powder funnel back out of case?

There are two situations that create this problem. The first is one we have just recently identified. It seems to be associated with the dillon powder funnel and only a couple of calibers (45 Auto and 40 S&W). The land for expanding case mouth is too long and when you begin to bell mouth the bottom of expander gets into the thicker taper of case and wedges causing it to be very hard to get back out. We have modified several by increasing radius on end and slightly shortening expanding land and this eliminated the problem completely. Call Starline and we will take care of it if you wish. One other cause can be a burr at case mouth created by the final trim operation, which grabs onto expander as it comes back up. This situation does not often appear and can be fixed by deburring case mouth or inside lubing cases.

Now, has anyone actually had Starline take care of this for them? what did it entail?

Last night I loaded several hundred rounds of used brass, did not experience the sticking problem at all. So that appears to be true, but I do load quite a bit of new brass and would like to address the problem.

[EricW]

Why not just polish the outside of the funnel like the rest of us have and not ever worry about it again? It's a 15 minute problem on the outside. I have a 8" buffing wheel, so I solved it in 5.

I'm guess Starline's "solution" involves chucking the funnel in lathe, shortening it slightly, then rounding the end and polishing. No big deal.

[Andrew B]

To: Erik Warren and AZGunner,

I agree that a little case lube inside the case is a good thing. Also take the powder funnel out and highly polish it. This makes a huge difference. I chuck a bore brush in a drill, stuff it into the powder funnel and spin the powder funnel in some fine steel wool. I then take some polishing compnound on a towel and spin it in that. Works like a charm.

[ErikW]

I moved Andrew B's post from a case lube topic to here.

Andrew, thanks for finally getting me to polish my expander. I couldn't do it with a 3/8" drill chuck but your bore brush trick worked great. I polished my .40 expander with ScotchBrite, then Flitz on a cleaning patch, then just a plain cotton cleaning patch. After loading 200 rounds, the expander doesn't hang up anymore. Most cases are like butter and some give a little resistance. When I try it with once-fired cases, that will be the real test.

[EricW]

I've posted this elsewhere, but I'd like to repeat that Dillon *seems* to have resolved the rough funnel issues. The last two I've bought have been beautiful. There was nothing to fix.

Thank you Dillon!