.45 acp and Universal Clays

[KAL]

I have been trying to work out a load, I have a boat load of this powder and want to find a way to make it work if possible. I am shooting 200 grain LSWC  laser cast. Problems are first the recoil is very high, Everybody who tried my load said it felt very hot. These are diehard regular clays users. Then when I chrono'd I found out it was very weak in the 150 to 155 power factor range, Around 750 to 770 fps. Second is I am getting a ton of unburnt powder, My gun is full of it and even the holster muzzle cup was full of powder.  My current load was 5.8 grains federal 1x brass, federal 150 primer, 1.250 Oal.  Any help or should sell off 32 poounds of this stuff.  both 5 inch 1911's  Caspian and a Para.  Maybe go up in bullet weight to reduce felt recoil????

[Flexmoney]

I don't know this load...but, could the powder be contaminated?

If you are getting more recoil that others that use the same powder, but you aren't getting the velocity that you expect...something isn't right.

(Edited by Flexmoney at 10:51 am on Dec. 16, 2002)

[L9X25]

I cannot explain the recoil aspect of your problem beyond saying that you need to spring your gun according to the power factor that you intend to shoot.  If the recoil spring is too heavy for the load it will feel terrible.  

Most powders that I have used have a pressure range in which they work very well and burn as cleanly as they are capable of.  If you lower the load, and therefore reduce the pressure, they will get dirty because there is not enough pressure/heat to completely burn the powder.  You might try increasing the load slowly to see if you notice any improvement in the cleanliness and feel of the load.  You might be surprised.  Be sure to watch for signs of pressure.

Leo

[KAL]

Thanks Leo  My thoughts were this also. I was already loading up another 100rds this time at 6.0 grains universal Clays instead of 5.8 and will go try them out now. The load data says it tops out at 6.7 for this bullet. I started low to work up and it felt hard and alot of flip. But like you said maybe too low, I have ordered a Pact chrono from Brian which will help out a great deal. But it is probably atleast a week out from getting here. I got to chrono the 5.8's on a CED model at a steel match yesterday. If all goes well I may try about 6.3 grains tomorrow.  

[Jon Merricks]

6.0 gr should put you between 165-170 pf.  I have been using Universal since July and love it.  I have not had a problem with the recoil that you have.  What powder or loads are you comparing the recoil to?  

[KAL]

Ok just got back, 6.0 gr of Universal Clays and 200 LSWC, Federal brass And Federal 150 primer. The unburnt powder has decreased but is still present. The load hits like a truck, Para p-14 5" all steel. Feels like shooting a Officers model 1911 in 10mm. Gun really wants to muzzle flip. Smoked like a 3 alarm fire, I was shooting indoors second shot follow up was hard to see.  Accuracy was very good, And it is a clean shooter gun cleans up easy. I started with a brand new sealed 8lb keg. And so far have shot 2000 rounds from a low of 5.4 to 6.0 all with the same bullet head.   The comparason load was  Straight Clays with a 230 grain head, I don't know his charge I think it was around 4.0 grains, If I ever get 25 posts in I might put the 2 unopened kegs up 4-sale

[L9X25]

Keith,

The fact that it is shooting cleaner makes sense but everything else is strange.  Do you have any idea what weight recoil spring you are using?  Too light maybe?  Based on the previous posts you are just shy of major and that should feel pretty good in that gun.

Have you checked your powder measure lately?

Leo  

[KAL]

The gun I am using right now is a Box stock Para P-14 steel I have no idea what spring rate it has. I check my power charges constantly on a digital Dillon scale. My 650 is basically 2000 rounds old, Just got the 650 set up. I check my charges about 5 times per 100 rounds. I think the spring is fairly heavy, Takes a good pull to open the slide. So much so that My wife can not load it with out thumbing nack the hammer first. The Para is also 2000 rounds old. It was bought as a back up and something to build from. The Caspian is being reworked So for the last month its been all Para.

(Edited by KAL at 5:49 pm on Dec. 16, 2002)

[Jon Merricks]

Kal,  My understanding is that straight clays is faster burning than universal.  That may be one reason on the felt recoil.  How old is the powder?  It should be stamped on the  jug somewhere.  If you do deside to sell send me some info just click the message button in my post.

[KAL]

Yes straight Clays is much faster, That is why I got Universal Clays I thought it would be softer than clays. Could it be just the fact of shooting cast versus a jacketed bullet. The date on the container is 02/2001. Is that considered old, I wouldn't think so, But what do I know

[Guest bulm5]

Nope, clays would be much softer.  

[Jon Merricks]

What bul said about recoil.   No 2001 is no where close to being old.

[Shipster]

4.1 grs of Clays and a 200 gr LSWC by laser cast is the best.  I have yet to find a softer feel that makes major.

[gm iprod]

Faster powders usually recoil less. Ask anyone who shoot Bianchi. More powder = more thrust.

I use Clays, Super Target, 231 or Tightgroup. All of these are much faster than Universal Clays. With a 200grainer you can make 170pf safely and with minimum recoil (for a 200grainer).

Get a manual and make sure.

[Bronco]

I've used universal clays for several years load 9mm, 38 super, 40 s&w, 44 mag., 45, even 12ga. thats one reason I like it so much.  I have found on low volume loads that unburnt powder is a fact of life as with cowboy loads in 44 mag.  You can crimp a little more and decrease this tendency for unbunt powder, you also might try a liter bullet like a 180 gr. I know most don't like a liter bullet going faster but it works for me.

[KAL]

Shipster  Is that 4.1 grains of Clays for .451 dia or .452 dia.  I have some Clays now and am wondering if the .452 dia will make any difference.  The data in all of my books is for .451 dia

[Shipster]

Keith the Laser Cast 200 gr LSWC is a .452 bullet, but most lead bullets in .45 (made for the 45 acp) are .452 at least those made by Laser Cast.

Good luck

[Duane Thomas]

The rule of thumb is that lead bullets are sized .001" over bore size, thus .452" for .45 ACP. BTW the Laser-Cast reloading manual lists 6.0-gr. as a starting load for Universal behind a 200-gr. LSWC. Your 5.8-gr. loads may be unsafe, not because they're hot, but because they're too light. Might also explain the unburned powder.

Book max is 6.7-gr. I'd look for a decent Major load somewhere around 6.3-gr. myself.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 9:48 pm on Dec. 20, 2002)

[KAL]

Yes I agree, I tried 6.0 grains and only got about a 155 power factor. If you look at other sites like loadyourown.com and others you will see people loading that 200 LSWC as low as 4.6 or something which is disgustingly way low. WHY? because the recoil it bad. I was already getting primers that were starting to flatten and smear( or what ever you call it when the primer metal streches on to the brass casing) At 6.1 grains. And the gun shot very rough. So bad that I made the ultimate decision to buy straight Clays and load it up with load given by shipster 3 hrs before a classifier match last night, and take them untried to the match. And that as a starting point was better. I will save some Universal clays for a SV or STI .40 worked limited gun. As for 45 acp. I won't use it there anymore.

[Duane Thomas]

Y'know I've been considering switching from Titegroup to Universal for awhile. This thread was very well timed for me, and gave me a lot of food for thought. After 10,000-plus flawless rounds with Titegroup I felt like an idiot for even considering it, but I was told Universal was considerably "softer." What the hell, there might be something better out there, right? Finally decided to try it.

After checking out three different loading manuals, including Hodgdon's (the manufacturer of both Titegroup and Universal) I settled on 6.1-gr. of Universal. Loaded up 50 rounds, went out earlier tonight to fire it against my 4.7-gr. Titegroup load. Obviously to get the same velocities with Universal requires a lot more powder, but if there was a significant difference in "shootability" I was willing to pay the price. Fired a magazine of TG, a magazine of Universal, then started alternating rounds in the magazines, Titegroup, Universal, Titegroup, Universal.... Honest to God, I couldn't tell the difference.

I'll be the first to admit I may have an insufficent experience level to have an opinion here - I've only used W231, Titegroup and Universal in .45 ACP, haven't tried Clays, Viht, WSF or WST - but I'm just about ready to conclude there's really no way to stop an uncomped .45 from recoiling like a .45. So maybe we should just bite the bullet - pun intended - and if we're shooting a .45 make up our minds to live with .45 recoil and move on to bigger and better things - mentally, I mean.

Thoughts?