I want to Get an Open Gun

[werewolf45auto]

I'm Shooting L10 right now and I have a half dozen handguns. I think shooting an Open gun looks like driving a Corvette, So I've had my eye on buying one. I live in CA so you don't come accross them evry day. I have not shot one But I would like to know how it will affect shooting my stck guns.

In other words. I'll get use to an optic and very confident with an open gun and maybee not shoot stock guns as well anymore ?????

[G-ManBart]

Many people feel that shooting Open makes them shoot their iron-sighted guns better, but it takes a while. Some folks try Open guns and find that there is too much visual input going on and they can't get used to. Some of that may be more than just trying to track the dot since you're getting a pretty good blast in the face with pressure from the comp, and the sharp, quick recoil impulse that's almost straight back into your hand. Some folks also find that the extra noise bothers them (double plugging is a great idea).

If none of that causes you major problems and you get comfortable with an Open gun, then it's just a matter of practicing going back and forth between them and other guns. I'm shooting almost nothing but Open this year and I usually shoot the classifier a second time with another gun (Limited or Single Stack) and it doesn't cause me a problem, but I have some practice at it and still have to think a little. In the classifier yesterday I found that with my Limited gun I was tracking the front sight great and had really good points, but I wasn't driving the gun very well and was slower on my splits and transitions than I should have been, but it still turned out solid. Afterwards I was like...oh, duh...drive the gun stupid....lol.

[werewolf45auto]

Many people feel that shooting Open makes them shoot their iron-sighted guns better, but it takes a while. Some folks try Open guns and find that there is too much visual input going on and they can't get used to. Some of that may be more than just trying to track the dot since you're getting a pretty good blast in the face with pressure from the comp, and the sharp, quick recoil impulse that's almost straight back into your hand. Some folks also find that the extra noise bothers them (double plugging is a great idea).

If none of that causes you major problems and you get comfortable with an Open gun, then it's just a matter of practicing going back and forth between them and other guns. I'm shooting almost nothing but Open this year and I usually shoot the classifier a second time with another gun (Limited or Single Stack) and it doesn't cause me a problem, but I have some practice at it and still have to think a little. In the classifier yesterday I found that with my Limited gun I was tracking the front sight great and had really good points, but I wasn't driving the gun very well and was slower on my splits and transitions than I should have been, but it still turned out solid. Afterwards I was like...oh, duh...drive the gun stupid....lol.

"Some folks try Open guns and find that there is too much visual input going on and they can't get used to"

this is the part I thought might get better with an open gun. I also didn't think about the blast, I could see that really causing some people to flinch.

Thanks for the great input,

Dave

Edited August 11, 2008 by werewolf45auto

[bug_eyedmonster]

Many people feel that shooting Open makes them shoot their iron-sighted guns better, but it takes a while. Some folks try Open guns and find that there is too much visual input going on and they can't get used to. Some of that may be more than just trying to track the dot since you're getting a pretty good blast in the face with pressure from the comp, and the sharp, quick recoil impulse that's almost straight back into your hand. Some folks also find that the extra noise bothers them (double plugging is a great idea).

If none of that causes you major problems and you get comfortable with an Open gun, then it's just a matter of practicing going back and forth between them and other guns. I'm shooting almost nothing but Open this year and I usually shoot the classifier a second time with another gun (Limited or Single Stack) and it doesn't cause me a problem, but I have some practice at it and still have to think a little. In the classifier yesterday I found that with my Limited gun I was tracking the front sight great and had really good points, but I wasn't driving the gun very well and was slower on my splits and transitions than I should have been, but it still turned out solid. Afterwards I was like...oh, duh...drive the gun stupid....lol.

Wow, great information. Werewolf, this is exactly where I am at myself. What part of CA are you from? My girlfriend was lucky enough to shoot one of the RO's open gun at the range when I was helping build a stange, and she's officially in love. I'm int he works to build her one, but I'm also thinking about one for myself as well. I'm still trying to decide if I want an open or limited gun. I am shooting a L10 gun right now, and have been trying different things to shoot with both eyes open, but it's not as easy as I thought it would be. With an open gun I handled (did not get to shoot it, just handled one at my gunsmith's shop) I was able to pick up the sight just as quick if not quicker off index. I can't comment on the recoil, but I've shot compensated guns before... just not a hot round. I'll give it a few more shots, and go from there I guess...

Jerry

[werewolf45auto]

Wow, great information. Werewolf, this is exactly where I am at myself. What part of CA are you from? My girlfriend was lucky enough to shoot one of the RO's open gun at the range when I was helping build a stange, and she's officially in love. I'm int he works to build her one, but I'm also thinking about one for myself as well. I'm still trying to decide if I want an open or limited gun. I am shooting a L10 gun right now, and have been trying different things to shoot with both eyes open, but it's not as easy as I thought it would be. With an open gun I handled (did not get to shoot it, just handled one at my gunsmith's shop) I was able to pick up the sight just as quick if not quicker off index. I can't comment on the recoil, but I've shot compensated guns before... just not a hot round. I'll give it a few more shots, and go from there I guess...

Jerry

Jerry,

I'm in Redding CA. Were are you from?

[All-Gator]

Werewolf

The biggest problem (at least, for me) is that with a dot you are looking/focusing downrange at the target and superimposing the dot. With iron sights it is the opposite: You are looking/focusing on the front sight with a blurred target. When I shoot a lot of iron sights I begin to focus on the dot instead of the target...trying to center the dot in the aperture created by the ring holding the projection lens. In other words, I start concentrating on sight alignment instead of sight picture. This really, really degrades my performance with the open pistol, i.e., I stop being able to call my shots...NOT GOOD!

Shooting both does offer the advantage of making me aware of what I should be doing in each case. I can adjust to the different demands, but, for me, I need some practice time. G-man has the ability/flexibility to switch quickly. Different strokes for different folks.

A-G

[JThompson]

Werewolf

The biggest problem (at least, for me) is that with a dot you are looking/focusing downrange at the target and superimposing the dot. With iron sights it is the opposite: You are looking/focusing on the front sight with a blurred target. When I shoot a lot of iron sights I begin to focus on the dot instead of the target...trying to center the dot in the aperture created by the ring holding the projection lens. In other words, I start concentrating on sight alignment instead of sight picture. This really, really degrades my performance with the open pistol, i.e., I stop being able to call my shots...NOT GOOD!

Shooting both does offer the advantage of making me aware of what I should be doing in each case. I can adjust to the different demands, but, for me, I need some practice time. G-man has the ability/flexibility to switch quickly. Different strokes for different folks.

A-G

You should be able to call your shots with (open) using either dot or target focus. I was shooting 200yds with mine yesterday and for longer shots I use dot foucs. It's slower, but can be more precise.

JT

[HSMITH]

I just made the switch again last week, from irons to a dot. I had been shooting Limited for about 9 months, hadn't played with Open guns at all other than to function test them. I tried to shoot a plate rack and was over swinging the plates badly and burned 8 or 9 rounds, I mentioned it to another good shooter with me (who isn't an open shooter) and he told me to quit looking at the dot, look at the targets. Next run was very fast one for one, he was exactly right. A target focus and a dot focus are vastly different. You cannot use one with the other type of gun and have any success beyond very close targets. I shot a match in Open yesterday and it didn't go well at all, I was terrible in fact. I did not have any trouble at all switching in the past, but like Bart I shot both types of guns relatively frequently. Going a long time between types seems to be the problem for me, if I shoot both types of guns here and there I seem to be able to stay relatively competent with both. If I don't shoot irons and dots both on occasion I have a terrible time apparently, this is the first time I have had trouble since I picked up my first Open gun. Frustrating but educational.

Shooting Open makes me a better Limited shooter and shooting Limited makes me a better Open shooter. I am going to shoot both guns here and there to try to maintain some competency, see what happens.

[G-ManBart]

Werewolf

The biggest problem (at least, for me) is that with a dot you are looking/focusing downrange at the target and superimposing the dot. With iron sights it is the opposite: You are looking/focusing on the front sight with a blurred target. When I shoot a lot of iron sights I begin to focus on the dot instead of the target...trying to center the dot in the aperture created by the ring holding the projection lens. In other words, I start concentrating on sight alignment instead of sight picture. This really, really degrades my performance with the open pistol, i.e., I stop being able to call my shots...NOT GOOD!

Shooting both does offer the advantage of making me aware of what I should be doing in each case. I can adjust to the different demands, but, for me, I need some practice time. G-man has the ability/flexibility to switch quickly. Different strokes for different folks.

A-G

A trick to get back to target focus with the Open gun is to do a little dry fire with a piece of cardboard over the front of the C-More/scope lens. For a righty, your right eye can see the dot, but not the target and your left eye can see the target but not the dot. Do a few transitions from one target/spot to the next and if you're switching to dot focus without knowing it you'll find that you're staring at the cardboard. It seems weird, but works like a charm...instant target focus

Edited August 11, 2008 by G-ManBart

[All-Gator]

G-man

I do remember that exercise from back in the day. I had totally forgotten it...thanks for the reminder.

BTW, the bad news is that the older you get the slower your eyes are able to accomodate from far to near or vice versa. Just a physiological fact. The good news (for me) is that at 70 they won't get much slower...so my Opthomologist tells me.

Thanks again.

A-G

[Genghis]

Practical shooting is a complex skill with many components (vision, trigger, grip, stance, movement, draws, reloads, stage analysis, and more). It really helps if you can learn one component at a time.

Shooting Limited requires you to learn all of this at the same time. Shooting Open has eliminated some of the components. This lets me concentrate on improving the other components. With an Open gun you usually only have one reload per stage. You don't have to align the sights. You don't have to remember to focus on the front sight - you can just focus on the target then superimpose the dot and fire. The trigger is lighter, so you can slap it, where with a Glock or similar gun that will cause you to pull the gun off target. So when I shoot Open I can "game" a stage, take chances with longer or tighter shots, and concentrate on movement.

When I go back to Limited, I find that my shooting has improved. Yesterday we shot .22's at steel. Some had dots and some were iron sights. My best time with iron sights was within .2 or .3 seconds of the best scores anyone shot with a dot.

[werewolf45auto]

Wow,

Good info from everybody. I like hearing about focusing on the target with a Dot, One of my many problems is when speeding up on a stage I start focusing on the targets and my iron becomes a blure and I get bad hits. So stages with distant target or small plates, I'm always telling myself "slow down, look at the front sight".

Any way I think any Division is a blast, I just keep drooling over open.

Now I just gatta find a gun.

Dave

[boz1911]

Switched back to my Limited gun for a week or so to shoot a classifier match. During practice I smoked a classifier with all called shots. Went to paste targets and had two mikes...WTF?. It took a minute but I realized that I was shooting as soon as I saw the "red" fiber optic, irregardless of it's relationship with the rear sight. Took a few runs to get used to "iron" again. The other thing was drawing the gun an inch low every time, but a few minutes and it was all good again.....

[larry cazes]

Now I just gatta find a gun.

Dave

Be patient as there are lots of overly expensive open and limited guns for sale in the state. I have ALWAYS gotten better deals through friends. Because demand here is very high the good deals never make it to a classified posting. My suggestion is to shoot as many different flavors as possible to get a feel for what you like and then to look for a bare frame for PPT and have a smith build one to your specs. Most of the good smiths who are out of state will build a gun for you on your frame if you ask. I shoot about 3 matches a month and every few months run across a frame for sale through the local grapevine. Have patience and dont buy until you are educated enough to know how to judge a square deal on a decent gun.

[HSMITH]

Brian, put a green fiber in your iron sight guns. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed and the green dot instead of red dot is just enough to get my brain to attempt to engage. Sometimes the gears grind and the clutch slips, sometimes it works fine, but if I have a red fiber in an iron sight gun I am guaranteed to just blast as soon as I get some red in a reasonable spot on the target regardless of anything else. The green gives me a chance of doing it right.

[Mark K]

I come to this discussion with the perspective of someone exiled to Open Division for 7 weeks while Rusty Kid rebarreled my Limited gun.

Limited was fun, and frustrating. I admit that the frustration could have been minimized if I had spent more time dry firing and range practice. However, I knew this was just a temporary situation, and I was shooting (and paying for) ammo that All-Gator was loading for me (9x23) and using several of his spare open guns.

It was a good experience for me to get to a perspecive on Open shooting. I learned shooting through a barrel or a prop like a car, is a much different experience with a compensated gun. I did learn to double plug. One of the two guns I shot was so loud, that Boz told me at the last match, that the previous month they had to change the sensitivity on their timer because the gun I was shooting was showing up on their timer in the next bay. I did get to target focus, but found it was really hard to get over trying to center the dot in the aperature.

My biggest problem was finding the dot on my initial draw. With an iron sight gun, you have lots of visual references as you draw to make minor corrections (unconsciously) to align the sights. With the dot sight, with practice you use the front of the barrel and the top of the sight ring, that works. But I found with my short experience I would lose that dot sometime on the draw, and it could be anywhere - though I learnd that with me it was usually low and left. Once the dot was acquired, I could shoot snake eyes - shooting 95% in the last couple of matches.

However, now that I have my limited gun back, I think I can shoot even faster.

Some day, I may shoot Open. This experience gave me some idea of what I like and don't like (since I shot several different guns in that time) if I do build an Open gun sometime.

But for now - Long Live Limited. (I have to get back to actually reloading during stages).

Mark

[larry cazes]

My biggest problem was finding the dot on my initial draw. With an iron sight gun, you have lots of visual references as you draw to make minor corrections (unconsciously) to align the sights. With the dot sight, with practice you use the front of the barrel and the top of the sight ring, that works. But I found with my short experience I would lose that dot sometime on the draw, and it could be anywhere - though I learnd that with me it was usually low and left. Once the dot was acquired, I could shoot snake eyes - shooting 95% in the last couple of matches.

Must have been a Cmore? There are lots of alternative sights that position the dot very close to the slide and more in your NPA from shooting limited.

[wide45]

---My biggest problem was finding the dot on my initial draw. With an iron sight gun, you have lots of visual references as you draw to make minor corrections (unconsciously) to align the sights. With the dot sight, with practice you use the front of the barrel and the top of the sight ring, that works. But I found with my short experience I would lose that dot sometime on the draw, and it could be anywhere - though I learnd that with me it was usually low and left. Once the dot was acquired, I could shoot snake eyes - shooting 95% in the last couple of matches.---

Mark

Having to find the dot generally means your grip is inconsistent. Work on getting the correct grip in the draw, and you will shoot any gun better.

Great example of how shooting open, can help show what you are doing wrong with the other guns.

[All-Gator]

Larry

Mark shot two full size 9x23's with a C-more's mounted on an Alchin mounts. The other...the loud one of which Boz compained...was a 9x23 Tribrid with a Burris Fastfire melted into the slide. That places the dot about as near the bore as iron sights. He also test fired my 9Major which has a C-more on a Barry mount...higher than the Fastfire but much, much lower than the Alchin mounts. I'm unsure which one Mark prefered, but my vote goes to the Barry mount.

A-G

[Mark K]

Yeah, the Burris was better on picking up the dot, though the small aperature than the C-More, could make is a problem occasionally. The Burris also had a very small dot, and in the right lighting, light reflecting onto the glass could look a little like the dot. When I got done shooting them, I told Joe, if I had my choice, it would be a C-more. But on reflection a Doctor maybe with a bit of a glare shield (tunnel), and a larger dot would be easier.

Thanks for the suggestion, Wide.

Mark

[werewolf45auto]

So I would love any help on things to look for when shoping for a used Open gun here in CA. I have my eye on one now but it seems like it's been shot alot and the price in near a new one from S_I. It's a Limcat and has some miles on it. A new grip and things like that are not a big deal to me but I dont won't to spend that kinda cash to find out the frame is shot or the breach face is done for. So please any tips would be great.

Edited September 5, 2008 by werewolf45auto

[uscbigdawg]

Dave,

If you come down to Yolo on the 2nd Sunday, you can shoot my Open gun and we can go over a lot of things talked about above.

Rich