Report From Fgn's

[Jon Merricks]

Oh sorry. Thought we were talking about FGN.

[Bucky]

QUOTE 

Very few oppurtunities to shoot on the move

I thought there was plenty of opportunity for this.

Please give an example where you could shoot on the move and it was advantageous to do so.

Thanks,

Bucky.

[Bucky]

As for the calibration, my only miss of the match was a popper that I hit on the low end of the circle. Calibration knocked it down. Yes, this is minor PF in Prod Div, those poppers were not set light, and you needed to hit them well. But I didn't feel there was anything consistently wrong with the popper calibration.

My experience was several high shots on the steel from various competitors NOT knocking the poppers down, some of which were shooting major power factor.

[BDH]

Big Dave,

This is the wrong time to argue 'the rule'. It has been clarified several times, including from John Amidon..... ten rounds max, period. This was emphasized during the FGN shooters meeting last year, and again this year.

Doggin the Range Staff on this (not you, but other comments), is just wrong. Somewhere we have to draw the line..... let's says a competitor shows up shooting Limited, and it turns out his mag is 140.1 mm, so he/she moves to Open. He/she probably can not get another round in there over the mag that measures 140.0 mm, so there is no competitive advantage right? Well, sorry..... the mag is over 140 mm, so they move to Open. It is a rule!

I don't see this as any different than blowing down I-72 across Illinois..... there were these signs (rules) that said 'Speed Limit 65 MPH'. Okay, so we were traveling at 85 MPH.... somehow telling the Trooper that they were enforcing a questionable 'rule' along the roadside seems a little too late. After all, his job is just to enforce it.

Sorry, to get on my 'soap box' here but the range commands are the range commands... and the rules are the rules. If people disagree with a particular rule, then they need to take that rule to the rules committee.

I'll shut up and go away now, and maybe start another thread in What I Hate.....

I'm NOT trying to be confrontational, but........

[Bucky]

And, my calibration gun was making a 128.5 PF for the match; the other gun was making a 131.

If there was an existing gun making 128.5, then 131 is NOT as close as possible to 125 without going under. Please take this as constructive critisim as a consideration for next years match and not a bitch fest. I think this is merely an area for improvement. Otherwise, the match was run well.... except you had the heat turned up WAYY too high.

Oh yeah, maybe we should consider the new rule book to change the calibration ammo rule to be over 120 but not exceed 125. That allows "room for error"

[BDH]

Please give an example where you could shoot on the move and it was advantageous to do so.

Stage 17, 'Out the Window' Since I ran the stage, I saw it shot in every imaginable fashion. There was no doubt that the fastest times came from shooting the three center targets (upper A/B zones) on the fly between windows.

[Chriss Grube]

BDH,

Poor example as USPSA has a built in tolerance of something like 141.25. They measured the mags and pads available and chose to give some wiggle room so nobody trying to follow the rules got screwed. Yes the rule has been clarified, the horse is dead so stop beating it, but it is a STUPID rule. No advantage gained and it speeds up the match. Hell guys put a single round in your pocket, go to the line load with your 10 rounder, take the round out of your pocket and top off the mag, then reinsert it. Then you'll see them bitching that you're holding up the match. What happened to Amidon's statement about not beating the shooter over the head with the rulebook? Looks like a couple guys got whacked upside the head pretty good if you ask me!

[BDH]

Poor example as USPSA has a built in tolerance of something like 141.25.

Chris, you are correct that I gave a bad example, but I hope everyone gets my point. As for anyone 'bitching about holding up the match'..... I don't think so. Personally, I appreciated shooters showing up on the line with either a separate Barney bullet, or using two mags to load.

And.... I was able to run a minimum of two squads per hour on my stage.......

[TDean]

Excellent job Matt!! Man that's exciting!!

Any Master class shooter would be beaming if he'd beat the Production champion in the shootoffs, let alone a "B"!!!

WOW!

I wonder if Dave underestimated his competition?

I wonder if he thought he could just-cruise-through......

I wonder how he did at the shootoffs last year (FGN, RGN)?

I wonder how long you've been shooting Matt?

I wonder if, someday, I'll get a thrill such as that!!!

Big lesson in there......

Excellent!

[Steve Anderson]

1. You could shoot on the move on almost every (field course) stage if you dared and were confident in your ability to do so.

2. Sevigny employed a different strategy in the shootoffs, drawing to the small mini poppers instead of the steel ipsc targets. This slowed his first shot considerably. I'd imagine he thought he could gain speed on the big targets as well as an easier, more sure shot before the reload. Mink moved right in...nice job. I wish TGO had been there...I missed the top 16 by two lousy places.

3. The 10 round rule was NOT stressed in the shooter's meeting, (sorry BDH, it wasn't mentioned) and a very well known super squadder told me he loaded his first mag to 11 "all last year."

4. The shooter on my squad who was, as far as I know the first to get bumped did not fire 12 rounds without a reload as initially claimed by the RO. It turned into an 11 round issue because the shooter told the RO he had 11 in the first mag. He didn't know and couldn't fathom it was illegal. His mistake and accepted it very well.

5. I liked the stages just fine, not sure about dark house as a shooting test, but it was inteseting and different for sure.

6. I just realized today I beat TGO on a stage and came in third overall on the same stage. Now I know how Matt feels...

Stage 5 Heads 'n Shoulders

Place Name No. Class Division Points Penalties Time Hit Factor Stage Pts Stage %

1 DAVE SEVIGNY 13 GM Production 88 0 10.98 8.0146 90.0000 100.00%

2 JOHN FLENTZ 139 M Production 84 0 12.94 6.4915 72.8963 81.00%

3 STEVE ANDERSON 227 A Production 80 0 12.63 6.3341 71.1288 79.03%

4 DAVID OLHASSO 55 GM Production 84 0 13.45 6.2454 70.1328 77.93%

5 ERIK LUND 1 M Production 82 0 13.22 6.2027 69.6533 77.39%

6 ROGER SHERMAN* 277 M Production 88 0 14.19 6.2016 69.6409 77.38%

7 RICHARD DETTELHOUSER 66 U Production 80 0 13.05 6.1303 68.8402 76.49%

8 MATTHEW MINK* 76 B Production 78 0 12.75 6.1176 68.6976 76.33%

9 TOM KETTELS 181 M Production 82 0 13.48 6.0831 68.3102 75.90%

10 TONY HAWKINS 51 A Production 86 0 14.19 6.0606 68.0575 75.62%

11 LANCE EDWARDS 52 A Production 86 0 14.22 6.0478 67.9138 75.46%

12 MYRON POLLARD 77 A Production 86 0 14.23 6.0436 67.8666 75.41%

13 MILFORD LOVETT 274 M Production 78 0 13.05 5.9770 67.1188 74.58%

14 TODD SINDELAR 185 M Production 76 0 12.78 5.9468 66.7796 74.20%

15 ROBERT LEATHAM 101 GM Production 77 10

I know it's just one stage...but it was the one stage I feel I really shot my potential...

SA

[Flexmoney]

Erik is right on. Alot of the stages left something to be desired, at least for the Factory Nationals, where the max rounds at any time is 10+1. When you have stages that if you take one extra shot, you end up having to do at least 1 extra reload and it throws your plan out the window. Give shooters some extra rounds in the mag to have some make up shots if need be. Example, Primal Screen II ( Horrid stage design IMO anyway, you just don't put the entire stage on the 180.) if you got into that last port and needed a make up shot, kiss it good-bye. I came around the corner, shot the last 2 targets, came into the port left to right. #1 #2 with a make-up shot( made up an A with an A, stupid!!) and ran the gun dry on #3. Give me room for mistakes, which alot of the match didn't. All in all, I had fun and somehow managed to finished 28th, being that I shot the first 2 days really bad.

BJ...I have to completely disagree with you on the stages and the 10+1 thing. There were plenty of options. On the stage you mentioned, I had an extra round on each "array". (Wish I would have used it.)

The shooter didn't have to shoot more than 8 anywhere. They did have to execute their plan well if they tried to shoot closer to max capacity though.

I am with you on the targets...there were quite a few on the 180. The RO's seemed to handle them pretty well from what I saw.

[Flexmoney]

From the Front of the Match Booklet:

Match Briefing:

These policies are just as important as the rules. You are expected to read and understand all the contents of this match publication. Questions will be answered at the shooter's meeting.

...Metal Target Calibration ... calibrated with...a power factor between 120 and 135...

[Matthew_Mink]

Thanks TDean!

I just realized that BDH is Brian Hanna (sp?). You ran a good stage, it was enjoyed by everyone on our squad. We all appreciated you letting us shoot through so we could take a longer break. It was well ran.

[Bucky]

Match Briefing:

These policies are just as important as the rules. You are expected to read and understand all the contents of this match publication. Questions will be answered at the shooter's meeting.

...Metal Target Calibration ... calibrated with...a power factor between 120 and 135...

Hmm, several thoughts:

1. Does the match booklet override the current rule book? Had the pf been below 125 (unfortunately not the case) it is not allowed per the rule book.

2. If a shooter is allowed to shoot a 125.01 pf, is he to be penalized by steel calibrated at 135?

3. Had this been advertised before hand, would competitors have loaded hotter for this match.

4. Should the calibration process / rule itself be rewritten to provide "room for error". Note we have built in room for error in chrono'ing. This is why we use up to 8 rounds, and not just two (one for weight, one for velocity).

5. Has any consideration been given as to power factor and it's effect on steel in different configurations, i.e. does a 130 pf round of 115 grains perform the same as the same pf with a 147 grain bullet.

Again, I thought overall it was a good match and kudo's to ALL the ROs that worked their butts off in the heat and still managed to be kind and put up with us and show us a good time. Just - I'd like to see more consideration given to this at next years match - especially since this particular division promote shooting minor.

-- Bucky.

[Chriss Grube]

BDH,

There in lies the problem. You let people break the 180 or as you said bend, it is a clear safety violation. They were taken down range and coached. A guy that LAMR's with an 11 round mag that is not a safety violation gets screwed. How can you defend the rules are the rules and let that occurr. I'm sure by your reputation that it was 180.5-181 degrees and you treated the shooters great. What about the next RO that calls it on them. The point is that the rules are there for safety and to make a level playing field for the competitior. LAMR with 11 in the mag is not unsafe and it doesn't give the shooter any advantage and it doesn't put the new guy with only 10 round mags at a disadvantage, he justs has to add a round or use 2 mags to LAMR. You get the guy that fires 12 rounds without a reload he gets bumped to open that's a no brainer.

[BDH]

I just realized that BDH is Brian Hanna (sp?).  You ran a good stage, it was enjoyed by everyone on our squad.  We all appreciated you letting us shoot through so we could take a longer break.  It was well ran.

Matt, thank you for the compliment. Also, no problem on shooting through (I assume you mean ahead of schedule). It was plenty hot enough for everyone and the more we could get done, the sooner all of us (staff and competitors) could get out of the heat! Glad you enjoyed the stage.

How can you defend the rules are the rules and let that occurr. I'm sure by your reputation that it was 180.5-181 degrees and you treated the shooters great. What about the next RO that calls it on them.

Chris, I fully understand your position on this, so let me explain mine a little better. I had kind of a difficult stage...... there were two chances to sweep, and competitors had to run directly down the 180 line while reloading. In addition, it was difficult to stay close (and in good position) to the shooter to be able to always see exactly what they were doing (because people shot this several ways, and we did not want to trip them up). So, when I said, I let them 'bend the 180' maybe it would have been better for me to say that from our position (either mine, or the RO running competitor), it sure appeared that many shooters were really pushing the 180. However, without being 100% sure, I didn't want to call anyone on it unless I clearly saw them break it. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter, right? As far as how other range staff were calling these, I can only assume that they did they did the same thing...... if you clearly saw it broken you called it, if not, you let it go or coached them about how close they really were.

As far as the ten round issue goes..... I realize that this isn't as big of a deal as breaking a safety rule. However, they are both rules, and in either case, if I saw the competitor break either rule, I would have called them on it, period. I think this is really just a case of where it was easy to determine the 10 round issue, since the mag either has ten rounds in it, or it exceeds ten rounds. The 180 call was not as black and white, and in that case, I will always give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter.

Again, I just don't want people hammering the range staff over the ten round issue. If the rule is the problem, then it needs to be addressed with the rules committee, as the range staff has to work with what we are given. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Chriss Grube]

BDH,

I understand and you did the right thing. My point is that there are rules that are clear safety violations and should be called IF it is clearly violated. You gave the shooters the benefit of the doubt as it should be, that is what seperates a good RO from a Range Nazi. Then we have a vague rule that was clarified with a very strict version which can be fixed with little problem other than a blurb in front sight. No advantage gained and who really cares whether the guys had 11 and racked one in to start, used the Barney or 2 mags as long as when the timer goes beep he fires no more than 11 without a reload. It is just one of those really stupid damn things that shouldn't even be an issue. A little common sense could go a long way in fixing this.

[Shooter Grrl]

I'm locking this one since it's degenerated into a bitch fest and is no longer a report about the FGN's.

But first, I feel compelled to address Matt's concerns about the bumps to open.

First, it is most definitely, very clearly addressed in the rule book. Appendix E, Production Division, Magazine Capacity restrictions states "Yes, 10 rounds maximum in magazine." (Limited 10 division says the same thing.)

I'm sorry, but the competitor was in violation of the equipment rules when he put 11 rounds in the mag.

If anybody feels the need to argue this further, please feel free to start a thread in the rules forum.

[Flexmoney]

OK...SG closed this thread for good reason. It had completely drifted.

I moved most (that I saw) of the 10 rounds in the mags stuff to a new thread.

I'll now re-open this one.

Click here... for the 10 rounds in the mag rule talk.

[Flexmoney]

1. Does the match booklet override the current rule book? Had the pf been below 125 (unfortunately not the case) it is not allowed per the rule book.

Good question. One that I think is covered in the match booklet:

These policies are just as important as the rules. You are expected to read and understand all the contents of this match publication. Questions will be answered at the shooter's meeting.

Seem we should/could have asked at the shooter's meeting.

2. If a shooter is allowed to shoot a 125.01 pf, is he to be penalized by steel calibrated at 135?

125 power factor is the floor...some mistakenly feel it is the goal of their reloads. I shoot Production. I don't try to load to 125...instead, I load up to the manly 135 pf (where is my superman cape...hmmm) (just kidding, btw)

DVC one of those letters stands for Power.

3. Had this been advertised before hand, would competitors have loaded hotter for this match.

Again...no need to push it to the floor with pf. And, Arnie Christianson calibrates the steel at nearly every Major he works (I think). He isn't out to "get" the shooters with 'little thumper' (or whatever he calls his gun).

4. Should the calibration process / rule itself be rewritten to provide "room for error". Note we have built in room for error in chrono'ing. This is why we use up to 8 rounds, and not just two (one for weight, one for velocity).

Maybe...that is a great question for the rules section (I know it has already been discussed there).

5. Has any consideration been given as to power factor and it's effect on steel in different configurations, i.e. does a 130 pf round of 115 grains perform the same as the same pf with a 147 grain bullet.

Another good one for the rules section.

[Flexmoney]

I know I drifted back into the rules talk when responding to Bucky's last post.

let's call that the end of the rules talk, and get back to match talk.

If anybody has rule issues they still feel strongly about...lets start a thread for them in the rules section.