Dustdevil21 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Well finally made it out this morning to chrono my loads I built up. But unfortunately the chrono took a glancing blow and will need to be sent in for a little repair. I used a Glock 24 with Storm Lake Barrel, 13lb recoil spring and a Glock 22 with a Federal Match Barrel and 15lb recoil spring. First string was Remington UMC 180gr FMJ. In the G24 they chrono'd out to a 10 round average of 1013 fps, 182pf, out of the G22 I had an 8 round average of 994 fps, 178pf. Then the G24 shot an 8 round average of 180gr Montana Gold CMJ's with 4.5gr Titegroup at 940 fps, 169pf. With 4.6 gr I went up to 941 fps, 169pf (9 round average). I would have thought I would have went up a little higher? Then I shot 180gr Extreme bullets FMJ with 4.5 gr's TG and had a 10 shot average of 971 fps, 174pf, and with 4.3 gr's I had a 9 shot average of 934 fps, 198pf. In the G22 I shot the 180gr Extreme's with 4.0 gr's TG and had an 8 shot average of 818 fps, 147pf, and with 3.8gr's had a 3 round average of 794 fps, 143pf. That is where the testing stops as the chrono took the glancing blow, and my speeds dropped to around 350 fps. Sooo... I liked the way the 4.5 -4.6 gr's felt in the G24 and the 4.0 in the G22. What a difference in handling and felt recoil from the factory stuff! I had 10 rounds each of 3.6 and 3.7 gr's and burned it up in the G24. The rounds would eject straight up about three inches above the slide. It was wild to watch the brass tumbling in front of your eyes. So now the chrono gets sent in for repair, and the Dillon 550 starts earning its keep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Then the G24 shot an 8 round average of 180gr Montana Gold CMJ's with 4.5gr Titegroup at 940 fps, 169pf. With 4.6 gr I went up to 941 fps, 169pf (9 round average). I would have thought I would have went up a little higher? Did you write down the individual round velocity? If you got one that was unusually low it could account for the average being nearly the same. Also, unless you're using the same headstamp brass, going up a tenth might not give you any change in average since the case volume of mixed brass can vary more than that. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustdevil21 Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 Then the G24 shot an 8 round average of 180gr Montana Gold CMJ's with 4.5gr Titegroup at 940 fps, 169pf. With 4.6 gr I went up to 941 fps, 169pf (9 round average). I would have thought I would have went up a little higher? Did you write down the individual round velocity? If you got one that was unusually low it could account for the average being nearly the same. Also, unless you're using the same headstamp brass, going up a tenth might not give you any change in average since the case volume of mixed brass can vary more than that. R, I did write down the individual round velocity, and I was using mixed headstamp brass, but most of it should have been R-P. I left the info at home, I could post it if someone wants to see the individual velocities. What was interesting, I checked each load coming off of the powder drop station, and all loads were right on or within .05 grains of the target load charge (my scale is supposed to be accurate to +/- .02 gr). Knowing that case volume of different brass can make a difference, maybe when I get my chrono back I will fire a same headstamp set throught it and see what numbers I get. Since I will be loading mixed headstamped loads anyways, I think I will just leave it at 4.6 gr's with the Montana Golds, plus it will give me a little extra PF if I need it at the chrono station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71Commander Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 If you don't mind me asking, what was the COL/OAL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustdevil21 Posted May 2, 2008 Author Share Posted May 2, 2008 If you don't mind me asking, what was the COL/OAL? Ah no worries, I should have put in the first post. OAL 1.135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustdevil21 Posted July 1, 2008 Author Share Posted July 1, 2008 Well just, back from the Area 1 match and my load here (which I bumped up to 4.65-4.7 grs of TG afraid of making PF for major), I ended up with 174pf accross the chrono in the 95+ degree heat. Higher than I expected, so I think my next batch will be coming down to around 4.5- 4.6 grs TG. All in all a good experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 4.5 grains SCREAMS in my Glock 24 Harmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 My load of 4.7gr/TiteGroup under the 180gr CMJ chrono's at 1011.4fps, 10 shot average out of my G35, for a PF of 182. I'm going to drop this to 4.6gr and chrono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 I am being totally serious here: Stop, back it down to 4.0 and chrono 10 rounds at 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, you get the idea. Use all the same headstamp that have been fired the same amount of times. Make the loads as consistent as you can. What you are looking for is an increase in charge weight that does not show a linear increase in velocity. Plot it out if you are a visual person. TG is one of the powders that will get incredibly nast VERY quickly with little warning. If you see that it increases 12 fps per tenth for example and the next increment only goes up 5 and the next increment doesn't go up or actually comes back down you are on the ragged edge of something really bad happening. If you don't make power factor in the linear increase range of the powder I would strongly advise you to use something else, you need to have some room for something to go wrong like a little bit of bullet setback in the case or a slightly heavy charge. TG is way too prone to spike pressures to use if you don't have a couple tenths minimum of room before you get out of the linear speed increases. ALL of the guns I have seen blow up in the last 2 years were running TG, and that is 3 guns off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustdevil21 Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 I am being totally serious here: Stop, back it down to 4.0 and chrono 10 rounds at 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, you get the idea. Use all the same headstamp that have been fired the same amount of times. Make the loads as consistent as you can.What you are looking for is an increase in charge weight that does not show a linear increase in velocity. Plot it out if you are a visual person. TG is one of the powders that will get incredibly nast VERY quickly with little warning. If you see that it increases 12 fps per tenth for example and the next increment only goes up 5 and the next increment doesn't go up or actually comes back down you are on the ragged edge of something really bad happening. If you don't make power factor in the linear increase range of the powder I would strongly advise you to use something else, you need to have some room for something to go wrong like a little bit of bullet setback in the case or a slightly heavy charge. TG is way too prone to spike pressures to use if you don't have a couple tenths minimum of room before you get out of the linear speed increases. ALL of the guns I have seen blow up in the last 2 years were running TG, and that is 3 guns off the top of my head. Thanks for the info/concern Howard, So with that, and being my eyes have gone crossed reading through all of the .40 Major loads discussion, and even trying to decifer what you have recommended as good safe powder. What do suggest as a replacement powder? I see you like Clays, but also mention Power Pistol. But some others are diehard VV320 users. I load on the 550, I never load 100 rounds without checking my powder charge at least 4 or 5 times per hundred, each one is case gauged, (which I almost quit doing after I started using the Lee "U" die, but had my seating die back off and ended up loading some rounds long, I found it using the case gauge, bullet was sticking out the end farther than usual). I'm not a fan of the heat generated from the TG that develops so quickly, and am considering a change of powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 DD21, glad you took my post the way I intended it. I do like Clays, but it is JUST as nasty as TG if something goes wrong and actually gets to the nasty point a little faster. I accept that and control my reloading process very carefully to mitigate the chances of something going wrong. If I screw up I am going to blow my gun up. TG will blow your gun up too, make no mistake about that, it just happens a little further down the road if something goes wrong. 320 has a bigger 'cushion' if something goes wrong and works very well. Probably my third favorite 40 powder for IPSC type shooting. Very nice shooting powder, clean and consistent. E3 has also shown very good results for me in the limited testing I have done. Chrono mapping it in my gun showed it to be linear well into the 190's power factor, but then my gun will go to 190 with Clays and TG too. E3 is currently the second best powder in my mind. Power Pistol is extremely tolerant of mistakes in loading and setback. In most guns it will be safe way over 190 power factor. Downside is bright muzzle flash in 40 and it pushes pretty hard even at 170 power factor. Not much more push than TG but it is pushy. No matter what powder you use for your 40 I strongly recommend chrono mapping it at least a couple tenths if not a full half a grain past your desired powder factor. If it stays linear and controlled you have a much better chance of everything being OK should something go slightly wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 ya, it sounds a touch on the hot side with TG. I make 170pf with 4.3gr of TG out of my G24 with a KKM barrel and Zero 180gr bullets. I settled on Universal Clays instead. 4.8-4.9gr of UC, same OAL, WSP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) Well, I did get out yesterday and chrono 4.6gr/TG under the 180gr CMJ. Velocity = 986.6fps PF = 177.6 I was disappointed that the drop wasn't what I expected. 4.5gr/TG under the 180gr CMJ was Velocity = 971.0fps PF = 174.8 Maybe I'll try 4.4gr/TG next. Edited July 2, 2008 by RePete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 i need only 4.1 or 4.2 depending on lots of powder/primer.. This is with titegroup. 169 pf Harmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 i need only 4.1 or 4.2 depending on lots of powder/primer..This is with titegroup. 169 pf Harmon Problem is thatI've already chrono'd 4.2gr/TG Velocity = 873.6fps PF 157.2 These were fired from my G35. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Dustdevil, It sounds to me like Howard has given you some good advice. You seem to be assembling your loads very carefully and with due dilligence. However, I think you would be well served by always starting 10-15% below max and working your way up .1 grains at a time. Work up until you get to the PF you want or until loads show signs of erratic result or excess pressure. This method has served me well and have never had a problem in 35 years of reloading. I used N320 for years but I became disenchanted with Viht due to supply problems and decided to give Titegroup a try. TG is a very popular powder for the 40 but I have never been entirely comfortable with it even though it gives better accuracy in my gun. The temp sensitivity, heat and the low case volume of Titegroup in the .40 just makes me nervous. I still use TG in the .45 where there is more room for error. For my .40 I swallowed hard and went out and bought more N320. Here is my data for your reference: Firearm:SVI INFINITY Range: 25 YDS Primer: FED Bullet: 180 ZERO JHP Powder: N320 Case: WIN OAL: 1.175 MV / Charge / 1ST String Group / 2ND String Group / Average 897 - 4.7 - 1.772 - 2.199 - 1.986 910 - 4.8 - 1.220 - 2.095 - 1.658 926 - 4.9 - 1.788 - 2.221 - 2.005 944 - 5.0 - 1.081 - 1.810 - 1.446 950 - 5.1 - 1.537 - 2.044 - 1.791 Firearm:SVI INFINITY Range: 25 YDS Primer: FED Bullet: 180 ZERO JHP Powder: TITEGRP Case: WIN OAL: 1.175 MV / Charge / 1st String Group / 2ND String Group / Average 887 - 4.4 - 1.850 - 1.998 - 1.924 903 - 4.5 - 1.282 - 1.477 - 1.380 918 - 4.6 - 1.421 - 1.730 - 1.576 932 - 4.7 - 1.185 - 0.757 - 0.971 954 - 4.8 - 1.185 - 0.757 - 0.971 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 must be a very slow barrel.... some may be leary but ive had good luck with 4.5-4.6 grains W231 and a 180 MG JHP at 1.130" and a federal 200 primer. a touch over 170 pf and one hole groups at 15 yds of the sandbags(and ive never been good at shooting groups) Harmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 I think it has more to do with the longer OAL than the barrel. Tls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustdevil21 Posted July 3, 2008 Author Share Posted July 3, 2008 Thanks for the info We all take an inherent risk reloading our own loads, which I am fine with too. I enjoy the time I spend doing this, as it give satisfaction when you develop a load that shoots well in your firearm you are using. I like the sounds of the Power Pistol (PP), and the 320, but E3 there isn't load data for 40 S&W. Looking at the PP, they (Alliant) list the 180gr JHP, with 6.9grs, (4" bbl) 1050fps. So my thinking is reduce by 10%, which will give me a starting load at 6.2grs, since it is a shorter barrel than my G24, I will even back it down to 6.0 grs and start from there. I also am goint to re-chrono the TG loads starting at 4.2 just to at least have a back up load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2fast Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 DustDevil, here's a thread with some info on E3: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=52071 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMuffin Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Well just, back from the Area 1 match and my load here (which I bumped up to 4.65-4.7 grs of TG afraid of making PF for major), I ended up with 174pf accross the chrono in the 95+ degree heat. Higher than I expected, so I think my next batch will be coming down to around 4.5- 4.6 grs TG. All in all a good experience. Just for comparison, at the same Area 1 match I chrono'd 176.7PF w/ 4.4gr of TG, 1.135 OAL and 180gr Rainiers out of a USP Expert (polygonal barrel). The same load chrono'd at 174PF at nationals last year. My chrono shows 170-174PF depending on the temperature. I can go down to 4.2gr and still make major, but there's not much, if any, fudge factor left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 (edited) Shot out of STI Eagle 5". I use 4.8gr of TG w/180 JHP MGB 1.220 OAL and get around 170pf average of 10 shots @ 61*F. How much difference would it be @ 80*F? I got the gun in feb so havent chronoed in hot temps. Also I chrono inside with an ohler chrono. Thanks BK Edited July 3, 2008 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokecloud Posted July 19, 2008 Share Posted July 19, 2008 dont forget that some of the differences may simply be jacketed speeds vs. hardcast or plated. My G35 makes major with 4.2 TG most days with hardcast or plated, but if I load jacketed, I have to push them harder to get the same speeds. That doesnt change with either the KKM or the stock barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I think it has more to do with the longer OAL than the barrel.Tls not really, He states hes loading to 1.135 oal, 4.5 grains TG and a 180 grain bullet the same oal needs only 4.1-4.2 grains to get the PF in my gun which is also a glock 24 and it has a KKM barrel. again, i think his barrel is slow as the UMC ammo goes 1100 fps + in my gun. Harmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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