banjobart Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 ...Not in school, but at IDPA matches. The 2001 rule book seems clear to me that an illegal "Sight Picture" at an IDPA match must be done with an actual gun in hand to consitute a "sight picture". However, SO's are telling me that pointing a finger at the targets finger-gun or air-gun style constitues an illegal "sight picture". Does any one have a definitive ruling on the sight picture rule??? Thanks very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 The last time the SO's tried to gig me on that, I replied with "I don't see any Bo-Mars here, do you?" They mumbled and walked off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 I would say that most IDPA SO's have never SO'd IPSC where an "true" sight picture with the gun in hand is practiced. Because of this many consider "air gunning" to be a sight picture and therefore interpret the rule differently. I've been told not to air gun many times so I try not to do it at any IDPA matches. Even getting a good walk through of the stage can sometimes lead to whispers of "gamer" Since IDPA headquarters has always left parts of the rulebook open to interpretation, I try do whatever the SO at that stage wants as long as it seems somewhat reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Shooting sports are all a game, so shouldn't we all be gamers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 is it really necessary to air gun in IDPA ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Moore Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 for the gamers it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 I SO'd a stage at our local CC this past weekend. One of the shooters was all garbed up; Old Marine Corps cover, faded Marine Corps T-shirt, cargo/hiking shorts, boots, hair cut high and tight, and gold rimmed Ray Ban Aviators. He was even shooting a Baretta 92F. What does he wear up to the stage? A pair of black and white Nike batting gloves... I don't get it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjobart Posted May 29, 2003 Author Share Posted May 29, 2003 I wasn't really fishing for opinions as too the morality of airgunning or finger gunning in IDPA but I am wondering if anyone has gotten an official ruling. I have been waiting almost four weeks for an email reply from IPDA HQ. I need to call HQ. As an IDPA MD myself I would like to know. Personally, I don't really care where anyone waves their finger as long as they don't poke me in the eye. Thanks everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjobart Posted May 29, 2003 Author Share Posted May 29, 2003 I just called IDPA HQ and was told that airgunning is not allowed and this rule would be in the new rule book which will be out in a number of months. Was there a mention of this in Tactical Journal? I do not recall myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 This is what I meant about rule interpretation. It isn't in the IDPA rulebook, but it is a rule none the less. This is one of my biggest pet peeves with IDPA. The rules are governed by whomever has the latest email from HQ. It isn't a good system for an international sporting organization where everyone should be competing using the same rules. Rules should be rules. My favorite example of inconsistency is that Alex Zimmerman, the long time National Stock Service Revolver Champion, shoots with a holster that is cut down the entire front of the cylinder. The rulebook clearly states that a revolver holster may only be cut half way down the cylinder. However someone once said his holster was OK, so he gets away with it everywhere. I don't understand it. This is obviously illegal equipment that would seem to provide a competitive advantage on the draw and nobody does anything. You can't tell me no one notices what the top shooter in the division is using. Maybe the upcoming new rulebook will help. I look forward to an update to "the green book". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 There has been some correspondence vis a vis airgunning. It was also discussed in a big So meeting at nationals this past year and is in the working copy of the draft of the new rulebook. If you want to discuss inconsistencies and silly rules, my IDPA legal revolver which I carry most every day is not legal for USPSA Revolver division and would be bumped to Open. Go figure. As far as the revolver holster on Mr. Zimmerman, did you point this out to an SO/MD, or did you just choose to talk about it on the internet? Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 I could be wrong but they don't seem to be able to reach a realistic answer for the multitude of questions that are posed by the shooters, and be consistent match to match, place to place. It just seems to feed off itself and continue growing. What the heck is wrong with pointing your finger? I seriously doubt this really constitutes air gunning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Nothing is wrong with pointing your finger. what is wrong with just running the cof cold like it was intended to be? btw Banjo thanks for checking with HQ and letting the rest of us know. untill that day, MP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Mark In theory your idea is great, as a practical matter, how do you keep the shooters waiting to shoot the stage from seeing the way everyone in front of them shot it? I would like to line up behind TGO everytime. The first time some GM storms through the stage, does everyone who went before the GM get to reshoot... So the walk through.. If the MD thinks the stage through, and writes an all inclusive stage description, then the field is pretty level for most shooters. And I don't see anything wrong with pointing your finger anytime or any place, even during the walk through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Tightloop I agree with you that the stage directions should be over-written to eliminate any 'gaming' advantages -it is a pity that IDPA has come to that. As for the the finger pointing - I guess we can be at opposite sides of the debate and remain gentlemen . Untill that day, mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 IIRC, there was an old thread about this issue back in the old board but a search revealed nothing. Must have been lost in the conversion to the new board. I'm also intrested what HQ has to say about this. Our local club (once in a while) covers the entire stage so other shooters will not be able to scope it out and see how it's being shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Ted, I pointed it out to a couple SO's at the 2002 Nationals. That is how I found out about the letter. This is also why I'm posting this as an example of inconsistencies in the rules. Please accept my apologies if it was interpreted as an attack against Mr. Zimmerman. He seems like a nice fellow. As a competitor and self proclamed "gamer" I like to push the envelope and can appreciate working within the rules as the sport allows. As I said IDPA is allowing it, so Zimmerman is within the rules of IDPA. On the other hand I see this as a problem. I guess my point is that even at major matches the IDPA rulebook doesn't stand as the official rules of the sport. No one should be able to carry around a letter that over-rides the rulebook. If it is an official change then the current rule should stand until the next published edition of the rulebook and at that time everyone then works under the new rules. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Ted,I guess my point is that even at major matches the IDPA rulebook doesn't stand as the official rules of the sport. No one should be able to carry around a letter that over-rides the rulebook. If it is an official change then the current rule should stand until the next published edition of the rulebook and at that time everyone then works under the new rules. Just my opinion. I don't know if you checked out the web page at idpa.com but they have a hold on all holster submissions and are now rechecking all the holsters currently deemed "legal" as there has been a lot of mods creeping into established and approved designs. Perhaps things such as zimmerman's holster was the catalyst for this. I'm not sure a low speed cut is such a big deal ; with the holsters mounted behind the centerline most people don't seem to be able to draw without lifting the gun a bit anyway. Most of the letters I have seen from IDPA are not rule changes as much as they are clarifications of an existing rule. I don't see a problem with the principle of this, though I wish it were done through the web page so all could see them. The other problem with the letters is people are fond of wording the question with careful weasel words to direct the BoD to the answer they want, not unlike asking dad, after mom said no. I think the easiest solution would be to empower one and only one authority within the sport to issue those directives. That would save a lot of the problems right there. I have seen people flat refuse to follow a ruling from idpa because they believe that if it is not in the TJ or the rulebook, it is not gospel. I see their point, but the fact remains if the BOD changes a rule, it is changed, regardless of how it was updated. Rule changes are at the whim of the BOD, right or wrong. A key example of this is the morning of the 1999 nats, they decided to limit the number of mags on the belt to 2. The bod decided it, and it was law. We all had to go to the safe area and re-gear up. This lacks a key democratic element that most shooters are used to, but that is how the org was set up and they made no secret of it, and people join knowing this. However I have seen enough member driven requests, like the reduction of the barrel in SSR to 4 (yes that was a member petition, I was there) to know they do listen to feedback and respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faustulus Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I have seen people flat refuse to follow a ruling from idpa because they believe that if it is not in the TJ or the rulebook, it is not gospel. I see their point, but the fact remains if the BOD changes a rule, it is changed, regardless of how it was updated. Rule changes are at the whim of the BOD, right or wrong. The problem with this attituted is shooters will soon tire of it and leave. Lets face it the people who are attracted to games are by in large gamers. You can only make so many decrees before they leave your kingdom for a free land. Look how bad USPSA has gotten under poor leadership, IDPA is not immune, and arogance from the BOD will not help matters. We need the rules to be logical and fair, when they are not the game suffers. As far as 'interpretation' of the rules goes, it is similar to how courts make laws by 'interpreting' common law or the constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree Rat Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Airgunning........ I will never forget my first USPSA match. Field course stage started by opening the door and commence the hosing....... Imigine this IDPA'ers shock and dismay when three on deck shooters followed the RO and shooter through the door in a close formation airgun operation. Happend on this stage all day long for the duration of the match. I don't think there is a problem at IDPA whatever the interpretation. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 My only beef with airgunning in uspsa is this; three times I've been bent over picking brass/magazines on a field course only to look up just as someone airgunning the stages runs right over me. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted June 6, 2003 Share Posted June 6, 2003 Ted, Ill at least shoot you first, with my airgun of course! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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