Optics speed vs Irons

[Alaskapopo]

I did a lot of shooting last summer trying to decide just what advantages certain optics gave over irons at certain ranges. The drills went like this. At 17 yards from the low ready I shot three IDPA targets with two shots in the body and I came back and put one shot in the head. I repeated this drill 5 times with each optic. I had a Colt 6920 with Laraue throw leaver mounts so swapping optics was a snap.

I moved back to 25 yards and changed the drill to conserve ammo. I fired two rounds into the chest of each IDPA target. The three targets were spaced 6 feet apart and were all 6 feet tall. I did the same thing at 50 and 100 yards. I used IDPA scoring rules to determine the score as the USPSA method is difficult.

Drill 1 at 17 yards.

Average score

1. 8.89 Irons Colt 6920

2. 9.06 Eotech Colt 6920

3. 9.09 AR10 Accupoint

4. 10.1 Accupoint Colt 6920

5. 10.23 CQC (Best score not average) Armalite M15

6. 10.49 AK 47

Frankly I was surprised to see the Irons beat the Eotech at this range. I did not have enough ammo to shoot the Leupold CQC for 5 strings so its score may be scewed.

These are the scores from a friend of mine on Drill one. He is a faster shooter than me. B class vs C class.

1. 7.58 Accupoint Colt 6920

2. 8.14 Irons Colt 6920

3. 8.50 AR10 Accupoint

4. 8.98 Eotech Colt 6920

5. 8.98 Ak 47

6. 9.16 CQC Armalite M15

Drill 2 Me shooting 25 yards

Average Score

1. 4.45 Accupoint Colt 6920

2. 4.5 Fire Site mini reddot Colt 6920

3. 4.56 Eotech Colt 6920

4. 5.06 Small apature Irons Colt 6920

5. 5.14 Large apature Irons Colt 6920

6. 5.45 AK with Ashley sight

7. 5.57 Buis 5.57 Colt 6920 turning the dot off and using the Laraue mounted BUIS that came with this sight the apature is very large.

8. 6.06 AK47

9. 7.3 Wilson with Laser

10. 9.22 Wilson with sights

For giggles I shot the same drill with my Wilson CQB with my Crimson Trace laser on and then with it off. I had over cast skys so I could see the dot easily.

Drill 3 50 yards.

Summary

1. 7.93 Eotech Colt 6920

2. 8.15 Laraue Fast fire Colt 6920

3. 8.47 Accupoint 4x Colt 6920

4. 8.51 Accupoint 1.25 X Colt 6920

5. 10.07 Large Apature Colt 6920

6. 10.39 Small Apature Colt 6920

7. 10.82 AK 47 Ashely

Drill 4 100 yards.

1. 8.30 Eotech Colt 6920

2. 11.59 Irons Colt 6920

3. 13.20 Accupoing 4x Colt 6920

4. 15.69 AK 47

Drill 4 Scott Shooting

Summary

1. Eotech 7.44

2. Accupoint 8.49

3. Irons 9.29

As you can see he kicked my butt.

I learned a lot form doing this. First Irons are just as fast inside of 15 yards but once you get to 25 yards Optics start to shine. I found that the AR kicked the AK's butt especially as the distance increased. I have a new optic to test now. The new Swarvski Optik Z6i. I have it in but don't have it mounted yet.

Later all

Pat

Edited March 10, 2008 by Alaskapopo

[kurtm]

Optic really "shine" when the sun is in front of you, or in back of you. The glint can be seen for miles

On a serious note and believe me when I say I don't mean this in any derogitory mannor; are either of you know as really good iron sight shooters? The reason I ask this is if you aren't it may have skewed you findings a bit. KurtM

[bigbrowndog]

As much as it pains me to agree with KurtM, unknowingly you could easily skew the results. The info is important regarding the 2 of you, but you cannot draw conclusions to the sighting systems themselves or the general shooting public.

a good iron shooter could increase the range and a good optic shooter could shorten the range, also being familiar with YOUR gun and its recoil tendencies could skew the results.

Trapr

[Merlin Orr]

What I am seeing - The conclusion I am drawing is as follows.

Iron sight shooters like to think that iron sights have a advantage over optics at some range - in some manner. I have also come to the conclusion that ONLY iron sight shooters (a very few at that) have this delusional belief.

[bigbrowndog]

Excuse me sir, but who asked for your opinion. The last time I looked you were upsetting people with lowball offers on the "classifieds" forum.

Trapr

[Merlin Orr]

Excuse me sir, but who asked for your opinion. The last time I looked you were upsetting people with lowball offers on the "classifieds" forum.

Trapr

Don't be drifting the thread.. and don't be confusing "lowball" offers with realistic offers....

[Alaskapopo]

Optic really "shine" when the sun is in front of you, or in back of you. The glint can be seen for miles

On a serious note and believe me when I say I don't mean this in any derogitory mannor; are either of you know as really good iron sight shooters? The reason I ask this is if you aren't it may have skewed you findings a bit. KurtM

I started with Irons when I learned to shoot. I shoot Irons on my pistols and shotguns. (Ghost rings on the shotguns) So I feel I have a fair iron sight shooter. I can shoot good groups with Irons. But I was doing my best to be objective in these tests. In fact I shot the irons only as a control. I wanted to find out if the Eotech was faster than a low power variable scope inside 100 yards by a significant margin. The Ak and the Irons on the AR were just for fun.

I will do some more this summer.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

As much as it pains me to agree with KurtM, unknowingly you could easily skew the results. The info is important regarding the 2 of you, but you cannot draw conclusions to the sighting systems themselves or the general shooting public.

a good iron shooter could increase the range and a good optic shooter could shorten the range, also being familiar with YOUR gun and its recoil tendencies could skew the results.

Trapr

When it came to the gun I used the same gun with the EOtech, Accupoint, Firesight and IRONS. I have a fair amount of optics in Laraue mounts. The only different guns were my friends M15 with his CQC, My AR10 carbine and the AK.

Pat

[kurtm]

Merlin, Merlin, Merlin. If you had bothered to come to the Texas State Carbine Championships instead of playing around in the wind ravaged areas of the U.S. you would have found that the over all results had two open shooters as first and second, Jerry Miculec and James Darst, and THIRD OVERALL was a Iron sight shooter, all shooting was done on IDPA targets and from 100 yards and in, The nearest "tactical shooter" was over 90 poins down on the good old "iron man". Just the ranges and target area ALPOPO aludes to. So I guess you should go back to adjusting your wind gages. By the By are we going to see you on the 22 for a bit of shotgun humiliation?? KURTM

[Merlin Orr]

I find it interesting that the only guys I see blowing the iron sights horn are those of GM capabilities.... and..if these same "unnamed" GM class shooters were to move to this centuries equipment I would bet the names on the list (as mentioned above) would not be in 3rd place but........ in FIRST!

[nm3gnr]

I did a lot of shooting last summer trying to decide just what advantages certain optics gave over irons at certain ranges. The drills went like this. At 17 yards from the low ready I shot three IDPA targets with two shots in the body and I came back and put one shot in the head. I repeated this drill 5 times with each optic. I had a Colt 6920 with Laraue throw leaver mounts so swapping optics was a snap.

I moved back to 25 yards and changed the drill to conserve ammo. I fired two rounds into the chest of each IDPA target. The three targets were spaced 6 feet apart and were all 6 feet tall. I did the same thing at 50 and 100 yards. I used IDPA scoring rules to determine the score as the USPSA method is difficult.

Drill 1 at 17 yards.

Average score

1. 8.89 Irons Colt 6920

2. 9.06 Eotech Colt 6920

3. 9.09 AR10 Accupoint

4. 10.1 Accupoint Colt 6920

5. 10.23 CQC (Best score not average) Armalite M15

6. 10.49 AK 47

Frankly I was surprised to see the Irons beat the Eotech at this range. I did not have enough ammo to shoot the Leupold CQC for 5 strings so its score may be scewed.

These are the scores from a friend of mine on Drill one. He is a faster shooter than me. B class vs C class.

1. 7.58 Accupoint Colt 6920

2. 8.14 Irons Colt 6920

3. 8.50 AR10 Accupoint

4. 8.98 Eotech Colt 6920

5. 8.98 Ak 47

6. 9.16 CQC Armalite M15

Drill 2 Me shooting

Average Score

1. 4.45 Accupoint Colt 6920

2. 4.5 Fire Site mini reddot Colt 6920

3. 4.56 Eotech Colt 6920

4. 5.06 Small apature Irons Colt 6920

5. 5.14 Large apature Irons Colt 6920

6. 5.45 AK with Ashley sight

7. 5.57 Buis 5.57 Colt 6920 turning the dot off and using the Laraue mounted BUIS that came with this sight the apature is very large.

8. 6.06 AK47

9. 7.3 Wilson with Laser

10. 9.22 Wilson with sights

For giggles I shot the same drill with my Wilson CQB with my Crimson Trace laser on and then with it off. I had over cast skys so I could see the dot easily.

Drill 3 50 yards.

Summary

1. 7.93 Eotech Colt 6920

2. 8.15 Laraue Fast fire Colt 6920

3. 8.47 Accupoint 4x Colt 6920

4. 8.51 Accupoint 1.25 X Colt 6920

5. 10.07 Large Apature Colt 6920

6. 10.39 Small Apature Colt 6920

7. 10.82 AK 47 Ashely

Drill 4 100 yards.

1. 8.30 Eotech Colt 6920

2. 11.59 Irons Colt 6920

3. 13.20 Accupoing 4x Colt 6920

4. 15.69 AK 47

Drill 4 Scott Shooting

Summary

1. Eotech 7.44

2. Accupoint 8.49

3. Irons 9.29

As you can see he kicked my butt.

I learned a lot form doing this. First Irons are just as fast inside of 15 yards but once you get to 25 yards Optics start to shine. I found that the AR kicked the AK's butt especially as the distance increased. I have a new optic to test now. The new Swarvski Optik Z6i. I have it in but don't have it mounted yet.

Later all

Pat

Pat,

It really comes down to what you feel is more comfortable and or faster, and or more accurate for you.

In your own search of doing these type and maybe other drills you will find your comfort zone and speed.

Good Luck !

[Chuck Anderson]

I find it interesting that the only guys I see blowing the iron sights horn are those of GM capabilities.... and..if these same "unnamed" GM class shooters were to move to this centuries equipment I would bet the names on the list (as mentioned above) would not be in 3rd place but........ in FIRST!

Merlin that is clearly not a fair statement. Optics were around last century (and before) so they are clearly not, "this centuries," equipment. Now you leave Trapr and Kurt alone. They have a match to shoot this weekend and need to cast up some minnie ball loads for their black powder rifles.

[busyhawk]

To each thier own...however, here are two thoughts;

#1. Look at the TOP Army 3 gunners; Robbie and Daniel...I have seen some scores last year that they are dead nuts even on the rifle only stages. Both great shooters and both using different sights, iron vs optics on the rifle. Supports the thought that it is what you are good at and both have thier advantages and disadvantages.

In my day I was one hell of a lot faster with my irons and only had to give them up when my sight went somewhere (for sure not south because I go thier all the time and have yet to find it there). I was raised on iron and again, it was what I was comfortable/familure with (that and when I first went into the military that was the only option).

#2. If Irons were so good, "Please" tell me how many OPEN shooters use only iron sights on thier open rifles.

Now for us mere humans I have to use a X power scope just to see the target at anything over 125 yards away but I can't remember seeing an open shooter with irons (my memory is going somewhere too).

Scott

[bigbrowndog]

Lawman, the match is with SG's so we are loading our Blunderbusses, not rifles. Come on man, stay with the program.

BTW, I know several Open shooters that use irons on their rifles,( and i know what you wrote, ONLY) and the number of Open shotgunners that do not have an optic on their SG is quite large, so there must be an advantage somewhere. I does stand to reason that you must know where your target is, and being able to see it helps also. However conditioning your eyes to be used for seeing the target does help as well. So if you are trying to use irons and you have not given it a proper amount of practice....................then you'll suck. If you actually have a physical impairment that you cannot fix or work through,...........................................then you'll suck.

I believe the Colonel, once said, that you don't have to be able to see your target, but you do have to know where it is.

Any good artilleryman should know that.

Apopo, what I meant about knowing your rifles recoil pattern was that thing called "recoil timing" now you may be unaware of what i'm refering to but it is possible, that you unconsciously have become used to the way your rifle recoils and as such can recover from a shot or simply know when to trigger another round off without the sights being exactly the same for each round. Being able to see your target clearly through an optic ads in this.

I do it a lot when I am shooting through a scope, I see it more often when I'm getting ready for Sportsman team challenge matches. It is possible that you are doing it as well, and just not aware of it.

Merlin, go work on your Vibra Prime..............................Oh, wait...............maybe not.

Trapr

[TRUBL]

I'm still waiting for Merlin's comments on the stripper thread

[blkbrd]

I find it interesting that the only guys I see blowing the iron sights horn are those of GM capabilities.... and..if these same "unnamed" GM class shooters were to move to this centuries equipment I would bet the names on the list (as mentioned above) would not be in 3rd place but........ in FIRST!

I have run back to back tests like this just to prove to myself what work best for ME. I am a master class shooter that pales in comparison to 2 of our more vocal members in 3-gun prowess, good local is one thing but to beat national champions is another.

For ME, I have found inside 30 yards and EO tech is the fastest followed by an Aimpoint then the C-More. From 60 to 300 I like the Accupoint followed by the Millet DMS the Meopta then the various shotgun scopes. Have not tried the 1K+ scopes. Past 300 most normal long range tactical scopes with the Horus reticle leading the way.

Iron sights just don't work for me at speed, although I can shoot Master High Power scores in that discipline. I was a High-power shooter before the IPSC bug bit me.

Edited March 10, 2008 by blkbrd

[Merlin Orr]

I'm still waiting for Merlin's comments on the stripper thread

PM sent.

[Merlin Orr]

.........By the By are we going to see you on the 22 for a bit of shotgun humiliation?? KURTM

I was going to pass on the SG match and save my energy for DoubleTap but the more I think about this the pissed off-er I get!!!! I think I'll just come on up there to the high plains and drub on your old weak handed ass a little bit!

[ken hebert]

Merlin, Merlin, Merlin. If you had bothered to come to the Texas State Carbine Championships instead of playing around in the wind ravaged areas of the U.S. you would have found that the over all results had two open shooters as first and second, Jerry Miculec and James Darst, and THIRD OVERALL was a Iron sight shooter, all shooting was done on IDPA targets and from 100 yards and in, The nearest "tactical shooter" was over 90 poins down on the good old "iron man". Just the ranges and target area ALPOPO aludes to. So I guess you should go back to adjusting your wind gages. By the By are we going to see you on the 22 for a bit of shotgun humiliation?? KURTM

Ummmm, to point out a possible error to you, the third overall place shooter, first irons, was about 18 points ahead of fourth place, the first tac. And a whole 24 points ahead of a nobody like me.

[bigbrowndog]

Ken, apparently he reads as well as he spells. I hope you're right though cause I'm backing you without looking and if you're wrong, I'll be hearing it for a long time.

Trapr

[bigtex84]

Im definatly faster with irons than optics at 50 yards and under, but at 100 yards or so I think optics are valuable for precision.

[Mick]

I was one of those iron sight only guys until I turned 50. I switched to a 2moa dot Aimpoint and recall those days when I tired to shoot an OPEN pistol. I won't switch now. I always like the better checkweld I got when using the iron sights and when my eyes worked I had no trouble with targets out to 300 yards...

When we qualify in the low/no light there is no question the dot has the advantage...

[kurtm]

Ken, the results on the CBShooters web sight are in seconds, so I guess I was 18 seconds faster than Benny and 24 seconds faster than you, but take heart, I was 40 seconds slower than Jerry so that would make you only 64 seconds slower than Jerry. If you do the convertion to match points I am about 90 points ahead of Benny, and about 112 lower than Jerry...BUT IF it makes you feel better you were only 64 "points" off of Jerry Miculek by the scoring reported.

[Merlin Orr]

Ken, the results on the CBShooters web sight are in seconds, so I guess I was 18 seconds faster than Benny and 24 seconds faster than you, but take heart, I was 40 seconds slower than Jerry so that would make you only 64 seconds slower than Jerry. If you do the convertion to match points I am about 90 points ahead of Benny, and about 112 lower than Jerry...BUT IF it makes you feel better you were only 64 "points" off of Jerry Miculek by the scoring reported.

Impressive. Not so much the shooting but your way with words.... You need to run for office. Maybe Mayor Mel needs a Vice Mayor...

[ken hebert]

The match was scored using IDPA style scoring. Points equal time. I stand behind what I said.

Now... if a person was to look at the scoring breakdown, I believe they would see that up until stage 7 Benny Hill was running a helluva match, when it looks like something unforseen happened. In shooting, that's the way the cookie crumbles, but take it in context. His time should have been at least what mine was on that stage, which would have put him up there in your neck of the woods.

I'm in no way deluding myself by looking at the score and thinking I shot within 6 seconds/points of Benny. Somethng hinky happened and he trashed a run. Could have happened to anyone.