Jasonub Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 When I left, Eric had just lost a popper calibration challenge. and thats how he lost. now we know he is not unbeatable had he won he would have just won around 10 points still very close Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 When I left, Eric had just lost a popper calibration challenge. and thats how he lost. now we know he is not unbeatable had he won he would have just won around 10 points still very close Did he actually hit the popper? I thought I read that somebody said there wasn't a mark on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Did he actually hit the popper? I thought I read that somebody said there wasn't a mark on it. I'm the one who said that. I'll repeat again... I took a hard look at it from behind the line, including through zoom on my video camera. I could not discern a mark on it from there - that does not rule out an edge hit, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerwas Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 When I left, Eric had just lost a popper calibration challenge. and thats how he lost. now we know he is not unbeatable had he won he would have just won around 10 points still very close Did he actually hit the popper? I thought I read that somebody said there wasn't a mark on it. I was there video taping the run. I listened to my video and you can hear the "ding", but it was a VERY weak "ding". I will say this about Eric, I was very impressed with his taking 2nd place. You'd think a guy like that (winning every match in a 10 year period) wouldn't be as gracious as he was. This was the first time I met/saw him and he seems like a really nice guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I guess I'll add too that I don't think Eric requested a calibration incorrectly. In the end, especially if you think you might've put at least some lead on the thing, its the prudent thing to do in a tight race. Even if you missed wide, you could catch a break. Just like politely requesting an overlay on a target that you're not sure if you hit or not, and the bullet hole looks slightly imperfect - its probably not there, but you might catch a break... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAB33 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I can hear the ding on my video as well, ding/ding/miss/ding. Anyway, I uploaded two more videos. Max from make ready on stage 8: Grauffel from make ready on stage 8: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Even if you missed wide, you could catch a break. Well, I'm not going to agree with that...at all. If I win, I want to be able to look in the mirror and know that I earned it. I have caught breaks and had some not go my way. The ones that come to mind while I sit here...are the questionable breaks that I might have caught. (sorry for the preaching) I'm glad to hear reports that he hit it. FWIW, when I CRO a stage, I paint the edges of the poppers too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Well, I'm not going to agree with that...at all. If I win, I want to be able to look in the mirror and know that I earned it. I have caught breaks and had some not go my way. You can do what you want - and so can I, and I'm not saying what I would have or would not have done in a similar situation (my experience is that its worthless to call for a calibration on a popper I've edged, and even more worthless to ask for one on a popper I've missed). However, I would not ever judge a competitor who (politely) uses his rights under the rules of the game.... and Eric was seemingly exceedingly polite about it. (sorry for the preaching) No, you're not. I hear the same dings on my tape. However, from the angle he was shooting, the three poppers (they were US poppers, BTW) were at tight angles to one another, and two of them overlapped. It would be very easy to call a hit on white steel there, and hear a ding, and have hit the wrong piece of steel (the poppers were in the shade, with little edge definition on the overlaps. I can't recall exactly which one was standing - and its hard to tell for sure from the tape which order he engaged in, but it appears he went right to left and missed the left one, which would have been the back popper of the two that overlapped from that position. I was thinking it was the center one that was up, but either way... he was sharp across them, and nothing would have significantly moved out of the way at the time he re-engaged. So, we're left with the question of - there was a ding, but no easily discernable mark (meaning the ding could have easily come from the other piece of steel). Obviously, Flex, you think it was unethical to ask for a calibration, then, right??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Well, I'm not going to agree with that...at all. If I win, I want to be able to look in the mirror and know that I earned it. I have caught breaks and had some not go my way. You can do what you want - and so can I, and I'm not saying what I would have or would not have done in a similar situation (my experience is that its worthless to call for a calibration on a popper I've edged, and even more worthless to ask for one on a popper I've missed). However, I would not ever judge a competitor who (politely) uses his rights under the rules of the game.... and Eric was seemingly exceedingly polite about it. The rules of the game don't allow for calibrating a miss. A miss is a miss. I was going off your post from earlier...where you alluded that he didn't have a hit on the popper. Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 The rules of the game don't allow for calibrating a miss. A miss is a miss. Other than the fact that the steel is standing, they also don't give us a gauge for what constitutes a "hit". When is a hit not a hit? Or put another way, when is a miss not a miss? If you edge a popper, or hit it below the calibration circle, how would you determine when you had enough "hit" on it to qualify for a calibration? The thing is still standing, so obviously it was a miss, right? Or was it? Even though there's no visible hit on the face of the target, the competitor may have thought he edged the target, and its his right to have the thing checked out. I've seen far odder things than edge-ish hits not leaving much of a visible mark (thus why I've been careful to say that a hit wasn't apparent, vs. saying that I thought he missed the popper), so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. He wants it calibrated, calibrate it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 It was possible to engage the poppers from 2 or more locations. EG chose to engage the poppers from the far right position which partially aligned the poppers and also caused you to shoot them at a slight angle, and not head on as the course designer intended. That could also give you the opportunity to ding the side of the popper without making a mark on it's face. Since the calibration was being called into question, nobody went near the popper to examine it, but there was no hit visible on the face of the popper. As was the case each time I saw a calibration, Rosie's 9mm dropped the popper like it was a 50 cal ... it was not even close. To his credit, there was no sniveling or drama, he accepted the result gracefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I wasn't there. I don't know if there was a hit or a miss. If a target is missed, then we can calibrate until the cows come home, the shooter still gets a miss. Heck, the target could be welded to stay upright no matter what...if the shooter doesn't hit the target...it is a miss. There is some verbage in the rule book that speaks to the "frontal area" of steel (no-shoot steel and calibrating). But, it is a bit wishy-washy with regards to scoring hits. Some clarity on that would probably be good. (probably a good topic for the rules forum) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) No match book, either. Sorry, I posted stage 10... Still - check out match vids - should be easy to figure out. The first array is one up close on the left, two long paper, with a popper and US popper (hiding behind the popper). The middle array is 3 poppers and two paper hard left. Further on, you pick up one more on the left, plus two paper (one in a window, one hard right) and 3 US poppers (through a window). At the end, two targets off to the left of the US poppers, and one more target further left. Edited February 13, 2008 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 When I resize my pictures I'll post them. I took pictures from a bunch of different angles so I could do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramas Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 This thread has a little bit drift out of original theme in my opinion. What is your point, do you want to say, that Eric Grauffel cheated or something? So say so, don't wrap it! He is world class shooter, he shoots for result, not for fun! I agree with Dave, that he had to call calibration, because he thought that he hit that popper and he had rights to do that! P.S. I can recall one stage in our chamionships, when he was in close battle and he had miss. What I was impresed about he accepted that miss without any comments, because he knew that it was a miss! That was a class act! He hasn't argued because he knew he missed! P.S.S. Don't understand me wrong, I like Max an Chris very mutch, and they are true champions also. By the way, I think that Max have a lot of confidence now and this is a BIG THING looking for World shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Ramas, Flex wasn't implying anything of the sort - it was more a question of whether or not its ethical to request calibration of a popper that you know you missed (or highly suspect that you missed, or don't know if you hit or not).... I also don't think he's calling anyone unethical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 LOL, that's a lot of posts about two shots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramas Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) I understand that Flex just asking , but someone could think opposite way Flex- no hard feelings Edited February 13, 2008 by Ramas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 self edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhglyn Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 If it is of use/interest to those watching this post, I do have a very nice video of Eric shooting the stage in question here. If someone is willing to host it, and get it up on this post, I would be glad to send it to them if you email me instructions. Good picture and sound clarity (29.2MB). Note: I am NOT trying to stir anything up, they are both great shooters. Just thought that those who didn't see the run, or would like to see it, could do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I don't know that it would serve any purpose. I wasn't really talking about EG at all. I was trying to point out a rule. What happened with EG and that popper had no bearing on the point I was making on the rule. Nobody needs to be right or wrong here. That's not going to be helpful. (besides...I am going to gut this thead of all the drift when I get back on the desktop computer in a bit.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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