UNITED MULTI GUN RULES NOW!

[SinistralRifleman]

The only thing I'd like to see the NRA do with Action Shooting is promote it in general...not come in and take over what other people have worked on for years.

[TimW]

The only thing I'd like to see the NRA do with Action Shooting is promote it in general...not come in and take over what other people have worked on for years.

That's all I'd like to see them do, too.

I don't shoot enough competitions to know all the differences, and frankly, don't care. The ones I do shoot, I understand, and participate in them because they fit what I want to do.

To say that having a singular organization, with a singular set of rules, would be a benefit to all competitors is just short-sighted.

edited to remove political commentary

Edited February 15, 2008 by TimW

[Religious Shooter]

No scoring system will ever be perfect, but at least "Time Plus" systems support the accuracy leg of DVC by more severely penalizing bad hits, as long as the penalties are not reduced to sub-second insignificant penalties.

How do you figure? The scoring that most IMGA matches have and the USPSA version has DOES NOT "more severely penali[ze] bad hits". Two "D" hits is the same as two "A" hits in time plus. Two "D" hits are "bad hits". Two "A" hits are good hits. And yet they are treated the same in time plus.

IMHO hit factor based Comstock scoring is quite a flawed system. It allows people to win who miss, or worse yet, intentionally not shoot at targets simply because they can do so fastest. That's rewarding something else other than ability.

Have you kept up with the rules? You can change the valuation of far steel and thrown targets (10 or 20 pts with the new rules). If the designer actually valued the targets accordingly there is almost no way that these targets can be "intentionally not shot at" and not get hammered hard.

[George]

Linda, I dont like the scoringof some of the 3 gun matches where every stage has the same value. I dont believe that a 25 round pistol shotgun stage should have the same value as a 35 round pistol/rifle stage where the targets are out to 300/400 yards. I agree with time plus scoring as it does simplify the process greatly, but I dont agree with weighting the stages evenly(every stage worth 100points for example)

That is one of the largest negative issues with Time Plus as it is typically practiced.

The rest of the issues range from the lack of target score values engendering sloppy shooting (A hits mean little in time plus) to penalties that are out of proportion and allow one bad stage to destroy the whole match for a competitor.

The example of tossing shots to game a stage brought up earlier is a symptom of poor stage design and shouldn't be worried over unless you design this possibility into stages by not designing it out of them

The folks who like Time Plus do so mostly for convenience sake, it does not address parity or "fairity" in any way shape, or form. Hit factor scoring on the other hand addresses accuracy versus speed and rewards good marksmanship when it is done with a modicum of speed and it also rewards sloppy shooting with exactly what it deserves, less points

San Angelo scoring is not that hard to do and considering the rest of the work required to run a decent multigun match, the extra bits and pieces of stats work is just fine with me, especially if it brings more accurate and equitable scoring to the multigun stats table. I personally think the extra work San Angelo scoring requires is being blown way out of proportion by the folks who don't like it. IMHO, it's a great workaround system until the software catches up

[George]

Now back to the main thread.

Yes standardized rules would be great. Howzabout the "outlaw" matches just standardize their gear issues at the very minimum (read HM here).

My suggestion would again be to look to USPSA for uniformity. The USPSA gear rules are pretty simple and yet cover all exigencies IMO. Use the scoring you wish but at the very least get the gear all on the same page.

In motorcycle racing I can take one bike and one set of safety gear and go to any racing club in the US and have no issues whatsoever with the bike, it's setup and my safety gear needing any changes to compete. There are literally tens of thousands of folks in road racing using similar rules here in the US. Why can't Multigun competition with way less total participation get there too?

[bgary]

I'll throw in my two cents (and then duck!)

Comstock scoring and TimePlus scoring both have their relative strengths... and weaknesses.

Comstock is (IMHO) the best scoring method out there for scoring accuracy *and* power *and* speed - it takes all three factors into account. Additionally, it does a pretty elegant job of auto-magically "weighting" stages... a long, complex stage "counts more" in the match results than a short/simple speed shoot. It's major weaknesses are that it is complex to score (especially for multigun, where you not only have to know where the round hit on the target, you have to know the PF of the gun that produced it); and you don't really know how you did on a stage until the "best" run is in the computer.

TimePlus's major attraction (again, IMHO) is that it is really easy to score on the range. You don't have to keep track of whether that is a C hit with minor rifle or a C-hit with major pistol. You just count the hits. You add time for each "missing hit", and you're done... and the shooter goes away knowing *exactly* how they did on the stage. The weaknesses of TimePlus are generally (depending on the individual rules that a match chooses to adopt) that accuracy is not significantly awarded (as George notes, 2 D's count the same as 2 A's); "power" is not recognized at all, and the relative complexity or difficulty of a stage gets "washed out" when all stages get normalized to 100 points each. That means that a 40-round assault course counts the same in the match as a 7-round stand-and-shoot. Last, I'd note that a "miss" gets weighted very differently on those stages, too... a 5-second penalty on that 7-round speed shoot is effectively a "death penalty", where 5 seconds on a long assault course might be "worth eating". ymmv.

I don't know that we can reconcile these significantly. It isn't really feasible to "simplify" comstock to the point where it is as easy to score on the stage, without throwing out things like power and accuracy. And, it isn't easy to add power and accuracy to TimePlus, without making it... well, Comstock.

Note that in the 2008 USPSA rules, USPSA *is* supporting TimePlus scoring at Level-I (club) and Level-II (section) level matches. We want to work with the other big multigun matches and be a "contributing" member of the multi-gun community as much as we can.... we believe that consistency in the rules across all the major matches would do nothing but *benefit* the shooter, and in turn strengthen the sport... and we're up for doing our part to help.

B

[Religious Shooter]

USPSA should do away with having differing PF levels between the three guns. The shooter should be either shooting Major or Minor throughout the match.

Make two of the three guns as the determining factor:

If you have two minor firearms ===> you shoot and score minor.

If you have two major firearms ===> you shoot and score major.

The vast majority of the USPSA Tactical/Lim/Open shoot one minor firearm (rifle) and two major firearms (pistol and shotgun). So they would all be scored as major.

Since everybody shoots one power factor you do away with a lot of the headaches that are required to correctly deal with different power factors between the guns.

The above method still rewards power. AFAIK power isn't reward at all with the time plus system. I would suggest that you make the above method another option next year.

[Flexmoney]

USPSA should do away with having differing PF levels between the three guns. The shooter should be either shooting Major or Minor throughout the match.

I made that arguement years ago (it seems) and got no traction with anybody.

My reasoning was based on USPSA pistol...in that, if any ammo used in the match was minor, then the shooter was scored minor for the whole match.

It did some real math on it at the time (in my mind). Seemed like it would have made Major rifle and pistol worth the effort (or, atleast...a consideration). Made sense to me.

[dvc40jim]

I really think that having some variables in the rules for in Multi-Gun is what makes it fun.

What works at my local club won't work as well in other areas and vice versa. And I really like to use a Time Plus system to score. I don't think I have ever shot a match where 2A's scored the same as 2D's, but one of my matches the 2A's would not add time to the stage, where the 2D's would add something like 5 seconds (i would have to check the spreadsheet). And I penalize very hard for no shoots just as I think it should be. A miss hurts, but a no shoot really makes the time add up!

Obviously we can't accomodate everyone, but if someone wants to shoot one of my 3 gun events and all they have is a .410 for a shotgun I'm still gonna let them shoot. The steel is still gonna be set for 12ga. I really don't care very much if a guy shoots 9mm or .45, I'm gonna calibrate for .45

I try to make sure that the "rules" cover all of the gamer gadgets that someone might want to include, speed loaders on the shotgun, no problem (hope you can use it weak hand as well). High speed red dot sight on the handgun, no issue as long as your holster covers the ejection port and the trigger guard.

I like USPSA Multi-Gun, but I don't want every match to run like that. I like physically hard "Tactical 3 Gun" events but I don't want every match to be like that either.

[jackboyd]

..Comstock scoring and TimePlus scoring both have their relative strengths... and weaknesses...

Note that in the 2008 USPSA rules, USPSA *is* supporting TimePlus scoring at Level-I (club) and Level-II (section) level matches...

B

As Czar Of Rules For Every Multi Gun Match In The Universe, I deem these quotes from Bruce Gary's post to be genius.

Join the Movement.

UNITED MULTI GUN RULES NOW!

Improving the world, one thing at a time.

[Merlin Orr]

Now back to the main thread.

Yes standardized rules would be great. Howzabout the "outlaw" matches just standardize their gear issues at the very minimum (read HM here).

My suggestion would again be to look to USPSA for uniformity. The USPSA gear rules are pretty simple and yet cover all exigencies IMO. Use the scoring you wish but at the very least get the gear all on the same page.

In motorcycle racing I can take one bike and one set of safety gear and go to any racing club in the US and have no issues whatsoever with the bike, it's setup and my safety gear needing any changes to compete. There are literally tens of thousands of folks in road racing using similar rules here in the US. Why can't Multigun competition with way less total participation get there too?

I can't believe the effn gall...... These "outlaw" matches - any one of a number- draw WAY more shooters that any USPSA MGM has ever had and you propose they look to USPSA for "leadership and uniformity...?"

[GentlemanJim]

Merlin has the facts there!!

I kinda want things to stay the way they are...I can shoot the COOL big matches!!

And USPSA can remain unpopular...that way I can get a slot

If USPSA multi gun got too big ...us less than GM shooters would not be given a slot

JMHO...Jim

[J-Ho]

Hey, I've got an idea.

We should have a unified set of rules for 3 gun. And while we're at it, we should do away with IDPA. Nobody needs it. If you want to shoot you can shoot USPSA. USPSA even has single stack now, so we don't need IDPA anymore, hell only a handful of people shoot it anyway. Oh yea, and ICORE too. What we need is a large bureaucratic organization to run everything. Everyone knows that monopolies are better run than competitive and open markets. We need to do away with competing organizations because they are stifling efficiency and oppressing the proletariat! Rise up shooters! Rise up and revolt against those who offer choice! Down with choice! Viva la Revalucion!!!!!!!! NO CHOICE! NO CHOICE! NO CHOICE! NO CHOICE!

(anyone who thinks I'm serious needs, well see my earlier post and check rule #3)

[Religious Shooter]

I made that arguement years ago (it seems) and got no traction with anybody.

That was back in the day where the POWER in DVC was sacred. With the introduction of time plus (which doesn't give squat about power) the BOD have softened their stance on a principle.

I remember in Albany after the 2006 MG Nationals where Butler asked that they consider having everybody shoot major in MG. And to paraphrase a BOD member's response... DVC is what defines USPSA. DVC is USPSA. And the crowd largely agreed.

.... Blaaahh!

If the BOD got soft on Vis and let a scoring system that disregards it then they should at least reconsider having a single unified power factor for each shooter.

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas is USPSA. DVC is one of the things that defines us.

[George]

I can't believe the effn gall...... These "outlaw" matches - any one of a number- draw WAY more shooters that any USPSA MGM has ever had and you propose they look to USPSA for "leadership and uniformity...?"

I affectionately use that term Merlin, not to lower the status, but to differentiate the style. I also only use it after seeing it in use all over these here shootin' forums. The RM3G and MGM are some of the favorite matches I have ever attended for fun quotient. I think the "outlaw" sobriquet should not be looked on as derogatory, but more in keeping with the nature of these standalone matches. Picking their own rules alone justifies the term without it being a bad thing.

Oh BTW, only a few of the "Outlaw MG matches outdraw the USPSA MG Nationals. SMM3G and a couple others get over 200 yearly, but many others are always at or under the level of attendance at the USMG which is always over 150 and has gone over 200 in the past when it was held at easy to reach locations (Vegas, Quincy).

[M ammo]

Many good points. Made by all.

One I like is the power factor issue,,

Flexmoney

I made that argument years ago (it seems) and got no traction with anybody.

My reasoning was based on USPSA pistol...in that, if any ammo used in the match was minor, then the shooter was scored minor for the whole match.

It did some real math on it at the time (in my mind). Seemed like it would have made Major rifle and pistol worth the effort (or, at least...a consideration). Made sense to me.

Religious Shooter

USPSA should do away with having differing PF levels between the three guns. The shooter should be either shooting Major or Minor throughout the match.

Make two of the three guns as the determining factor:

If you have two minor firearms ===> you shoot and score minor.

If you have two major firearms ===> you shoot and score major.

Either way,,, major or minor that would help the power factor argument.

The AR-15 in 5.56 is not going way any time soon.

Merlin Orr

can't believe the effn gall...... These "outlaw" matches - any one of a number- draw WAY more shooters that any USPSA MGM has ever had and you propose they look to USPSA for "leadership and uniformity...?"

To true Merlin. Outlaw matches, bring people it to shoot.

Our local match, in central Texas has drawn 40 for a regular monthly match.

Some people have driven up from Houston, and Dallas, just to be able to shoot a 3 Gun match.

The Texas Carbine Championships. Last weekend had 98

The USPSA Nationals, 2007 had 177. not a big number for a national match.

Our match and outlaw matches are not going away. We keep getting new people all the time.

Scoring I like the IDPA type. It rewards accuracy, and will make you pay dearly for a miss. Or poor marksmanship major or minor. With IMG, and USPSA scoring I have seen super speedy shooters, still score well getting a miss, or gaming a miss. Taking the shot Engaging a long range target. But taking the miss. So time doesn’t eat them.

It is not illegal to do that. But doesn’t seem right that a guy that missed a target, beat a guy who hit them all.

This subject will take a long time to work out.

At our Club We like the rules we use, and would have to see something really good to change them.

Jim M ammo

[Brazos]

As a USPSA club president, scoring officer, 3 Gun competitor, 3 Gun Match director, and having shot SMM3G, RM3G, Benning, Tx State3 Gun, etc..

I'll allow that IDPA/Time Plus scoring does reward accuracy. But so does USPSA scoring, while AT THE SAME TIME allowing for the correct handicapping of major and minor PF weapons. Even in the same stage.

I think the most important benefit of this is that it allows the shooter to retain the concept of FREE-STYLE shooting. Want to slow down and make perfect hits? Do so, and reap the benefits. Think you can run it fast and take some C hits? Go for it and see what the timer says. You are robbed of this by any other scoring regime.

Dont underestimate the value of Power Factor scoring either... I know many top level competitors that shoot a minor PF gun (with greater mag capacity and lower recoil) at IMG rules matches and a major PF gun at USPSA scored matches. Thats great for them, but it puts the rest of us at a disadvantage. I like spending money on guns too, dont get me wrong. But PF scoring levels the field back to shooting ability, not the size of your wallet. That is why we do this right?

The San Angelo method is hands down the best for ease of use and functionality, IMHO. Many experienced folks have responded to this thread, but I suspect that many more here have never scored a match. Get a copy of EZ-Win Score and try it out. Go volunteer at a match to do some scoring and then let me know what you think.

As far as equipment rules go...I'm in the IMGA camp there. USPSA has some work to do on that end...

B

Edited February 16, 2008 by Brazos

[George]

I'll allow that IDPA/Time Plus scoring does award accuracy. But so does USPSA scoring, while AT THE SAME TIME allowing for the correct handicapping of major and minor PF weapons. Even in the same stage.

I think the most important benefit of this is that it allows the shooter to retain the concept of FREE-STYLE shooting. Want to slow down and make perfect hits? Do so, and reap the benefits. Think you can run it fast and take some C hits? Go for it and see what the timer says. You are robbed of this by any other scoring regime.

Dont underestimate the value of Power Factor scoring either... I know many top level competitors that shoot a minor PF gun (with greater mag capacity and lower recoil) at IMG rules matches and a major PF gun at USPSA scored matches. Thats great for them, but it puts the rest of us at a disadvantage. I like spending money on guns too, dont get me wrong. But PF scoring levels the field back to shooting ability, not the size of your wallet. That is why we do this right?

The San Angelo method is hands down the best for ease of use and functionality, IMHO. Many experienced folks have responded to this thread, but I suspect that many more here have never scored a match. Get a copy of EZ-Win Score and try it out. Go volunteer at a match to do some scoring and then let me know what you think.

Could not agree more!

[Religious Shooter]

The San Angelo method is hands down the best for ease of use and functionality, IMHO.

How long has the San Angelo method been in the rulebook? 2-3 years? Can you honestly say that it has been widely adopted by the clubs nationwide?

I daresay that it hasn't caught on. Nobody in So Cal is using it. Probably in all of Kalifornia only Richmond uses it. I'm sure there are a couple of clubs in Texas that use it. And maybe 5-10 or so more in other states. It doesn't strike me as being succesful.

I mean if San Angelo is the "hands down the best for ease of use and functionality" why would the BOD OK time plus?

USPSA should allow a unified power factor. A unified power factor allows MG to be scored just like a regular USPSA pistol match (with enhanced valuation on certain targets) and you are rewarding power (unlike time plus).

[Religious Shooter]

As far as equipment rules go...I'm in the IMGA camp there. USPSA has some work to do on that end...

I don't see it. How can you be in the IMGA camp? Each IMGA match has it's own rules. There is a lack of consistency between the matches.

Where can you wear your pistol mag pouches in Tac Iron/Scope? There is no universal rule with the IMGA based matches.

How many shells can you load in Tac Iron/Scope shotgun? Again... There is no universal rule with the IMGA based matches.

etc.

What's so great with the IMGA equipment rules? What exactly does it have over the USPSA equipment rules?

With USPSA there is one... ONE set of rules. With IMGA? How many differing equipment rules do the IMGA matches have?

Edited February 16, 2008 by Religious Shooter

[J-Ho]

As far as equipment rules go...I'm in the IMGA camp there. USPSA has some work to do on that end...

I don't see it. How can you be in the IMGA camp? Each IMGA match has it's own rules. There is a lack of consistency between the matches.

Where can you wear your pistol mag pouches in Tac Iron/Scope? There is no universal rule with the IMGA based matches.

How many shells can you load in Tac Iron/Scope shotgun? Again... There is no universal rule with the IMGA based matches.

etc.

What's so great with the IMGA equipment rules? What exactly does it have over the USPSA equipment rules?

With USPSA there is one... ONE set of rules. With IMGA? How many differing equipment rules do the IMGA matches have?

What makes you think ONE set of rules is a good idea?

[George]

Interesting point is that all IMG safety rules descend from a direct steal of the USPSA ones in the first place. USPSA has pretty much been the source and inspiration for what has become the modern IMG rule sets. The understanding I have of IMG rules origin is that it was an attempt to simplify and re-codify the existing USPSA rules for 3G and MG usage. Ironic

BTW, the USMG Nationals and a few area level 3G matches use San Angelo scoring sucessfully too.

[M ammo]

Power factor. And a way to even that issue out?

That is always going to be an issue, kind of a what came first the chicken or the egg.

I can see both sides of the argument.

Many of the other issues can be dealt with. In how the stage is written.

This can even out many equipment issues.

Start the stage with a fixed round count, and force a reload to whatever you wish or have the equipment to reload to. Bata mag.

For example I have shot pistol using 10 round mags, and have done well and the guys with the 23 round, mags, beats you at the end of the match by just a few seconds.

That was the way the rules were for that match,, and that is OK, but I know I had to make 10 mag changes that match that the other guy didn’t, I know in my mind I did beat him,,,

And no matter what the High Cap guy says he knows it too.

On an even playing field, he would have been many seconds behind me.

Just that example gives it back to the guy who. Practices, not the guy who paid out the big bucks for high cap mags.

Free style on the how to shoot the stage. Is also the way to go. there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

And if we are all made to shoot the stage the same way. That can get boring.

For any distant targets, make it mandatory to get hits, before you can more to the next shooting. Position, and have par times..

That way they either run out of time, or ammo. And the guy who gets his hits and has practiced and done his homework does well.

It can be done. With how the stage is written.

Jim M ammo

[J-Ho]

Here's another idea. Let people decide how to run their matches their own way. Mammo has a good thing going, from what I hear. Some other clubs shoot USPSA rules and do well too. Why try to fix it if it ain't broke? Again and again, If you don't like it, don't go! If you like it, go. If lots of people like certain matches, they'll go. If you go and monkey around with a good thing it might not be good anymore. Instead of trying to force your ideas onto others, try to run a match the way you want it run. If people like it more will come and shoot it. If the rules are really good, everybody may choose to shoot that way. Let people choose. Don't try to force it.

[Blockhead]

Thanks Jack for starting this thread. I think this is a huge issue that we often avoid because if it's complexity. I'm afraid that if we don't look ahead and deal with it as a community, the end result will be fewer opportunities to compete. That is especially so at the local club level but also applies to the USPSA Nationals.

We all know this segment of our sport is growing fast. The problem is (at least from my perspective) that this growth has been occuring outside any kind of consistent influence. I'm not aware of a single club in the southwest that's been running regular monthly MG matches using San Angelo or the USPSA rulebooks (that's a lot of monthly matches). My experiance has been that each club develops it's own unique rules based on what style they like to shoot and what the folks running the match can make work. If you're lucky, the rules are written down but often they aren't.

The problem IMHO with the San Angelo system is that it's real hard to make it work in a club match where you don't have a standing RO team on each stage ready to run the shooters through the COF. The system needs to be simple when shooters are rotating RO and scoring duties within a squad. If it isn't reasonable simple, it probably ain't gonna work. Total time plus penalties is certainly simpler and seems to enjoy general acceptance at the club level.

That being said, how do we respect the accuracy and power sides of the DVC triangle. I suggest we do it by managing the penalties. Scoring shots outside of the A and B zones could be assigned varying penalties based on PF of the gun used. Shooting RM3G and SMM3G are two of my most favorite things to do every year. However, two things about their scoring have always bugged me. First, the practice of scoring "one Alpha or any two hits on paper" for a clean score doesn't seem to respect the A zone. Second, I've noted how some folks gear up with significantly minor PF pistols for these matches. It's just my opinion, but I think if you want to bring your 9x19 Edge, you should be motivated to shoot alphas.

As for power factor, while I haven't yet staffed a MG match that tried to chrono, I gotta think that's a difficult process at best. Here's my suggestion:

Rifle: Consider .308 to be major; every smaller centerfire round scores minor.

Shotgun: Consider 12 Ga. to be major; 20 Ga. as minor. Calibrate steel with 12 Ga. 3-1/4 dram loads.

Pistol: Consider .40 and above to be major using factory ammo and assume 9x19 to be minor with factory. Chrono reloads at Level 3+ matches. Calibrate steel with 9x19 per the current rulebook.

As for scoring values for different stages, I'd suggest stage points based on the total number of scoring hits x5. I'd also suggest allowance for higher penalties for failure to hit LR steel.

I'm glad to see the USPSA incorporate time-plus in the 2008 MG rules even if it is only for level 1 & 2 matches. I understand that EZ-Winscore will soon support that scoring. As a member I think this heads us in the right direction. We need to remember the benefits of the pistol rulebook as it relates to the pistol-only side of our sport. It enables a safe and (mostly) consistent arena for us to compete in. Where would the sport be today if some dedicated people had not given their time, energy and creativity find workable solutions to these complex issues???? What was done before for the single firearm format needs to be done today for Multigun.

Edited February 16, 2008 by Blockhead