How Fast Can You Pull...

[spook]

Ok, I'm having a little bit of trouble with fast splits. I can't make it happen. My fastest splits are .23. The thing is, in dryfire mode I can pull the trigger 50 times in 10 seconds. That means I can do an average of .20 splits for 10 seconds. I think the reason my splits are so slow is that the bang and movement of the the gun influence the smoothness of the "prep" (reset + partial pull) of the next shot.

It could of course also be anatomically, or whatever.

My question is this: Would you be so kind to pick up your revolver (if you have one 'course ) and warm up a bit by pulling the trigger (make sure it's empty;))? Now watch a clock or use a timer and see how many times you can pull the trigger in 10 seconds. Post the results in this thread to give me access to this valuable info . If you know your fastest split times (live fire) please post them too.

With this info I'm going to find out if I'm just not able to do it physically, or if the actual firing is making me stop the pull. Thanks in advance guys and gals.

[Bill Nesbitt]

spook,

I just did 40 then 35 with my right hand, then 35 with my left hand. I finally quit worrying about splits and fast draws. I just shoot and see what happens. I can probably do .20 splits in a match, maybe a little faster, but if I don't make good hits, what have I gained? I think smooth movement will gain more time in a stage than fast splits.

Bill Nesbitt

[spook]

Bill, thanks. You're probably right. Fast splits don't make that much of a difference, but .23 splits max is too slow. And if you can do 40 (and so can I) in dry fire, and you can do .20 splits in live fire (and I can't), that means I'm doing something wrong. Hits are more important that speed alone, I know. But I have the feeling I'm too slow on the close "arms lenght" targets. I gives me that "unsmooth" feeling.

[Bubber]

Spook, I have been charting my splits on a plate rack. It seems that my splits get faster as the number of shots increase. On average my fifth shot is the fastest. Now this is my average fifth shot sometimes my fourth is as quick but after all the testing is done and I average them out on the plate rack the fifth is the one. And as you are pulling the trigger fifty times your splits could be getting faster as you go along. I did 44 in ten seconds, I did 30 in 5 seconds but statred thinking after about 7 seconds and got tired also. My best run Yesterday was

DRAW SPLIT SPLIT SPLIT SPLIT SPLIT Total time

1.39 0.35 0.29 0.29 0.28 0.30

2.90

The Professor and I used to fire to see what spits we could get. I got down to .22 consistently and had a .17 once. I am starting to keep a running record of my plate, Draw and split times to chart my improvement but not my limit. Hell this is the longest post I have had sorry for being so windy today.

[spook]

Bubber, no problem. Great stuff. And 30 in 5 seconds, wow! Those are .16 splits. Awesome!

[Intel6]

I know my splits off the top of my head as I shoot my revos every weekend and always have my timer. My revo splits have been an very consistent 0.16 for quite a while now. That is with my 625's, 627PC and even my little 10 shot 617. The only thing that is a bit slower in DA is my .44's. With those I jump up into the 0.2's because of the recoil and having to index.

I have to attribute that to lots of DA revo shooting throughout the years including 600-800 rounds (38's) a week when I was in school because I was getting free ammo. I have always kept up on my revo shooting and pratice every week on steel with my DA revos.

Having started with a Bill Davis PPC revolver that was in DA only and had a smooth even pull without any stages. My style of shooting is to just give full consistent pulls irregardless of recoil and reindexing.

Neal in AZ

[Ron Ankeny]

spook:

I just started shooting revolver in IPSC (used to shoot PPC) and my splits with my 610 are running .20-.25 at 10 yards. My comfort zone is right around .23-.25 because that is where I get the hits and at that speed my transitions are about the same as my splits. Take a classifier like 99-62 (Bang and Clang). A 1.5 second draw, .3 transitions and a .25 split on the paper will give you hf of 10.17 and that is around 93 per cent.

Even on a stage with 12 paper targets at close to midrange yardage, the difference between .23 splits and .20 splits is only .36 seconds. I'll more than make up for the .36 second gain by maintaining a more comfortable pace that allows me to make faster transitions. If I try to go real fast with blazing splits I end up fighting the gun and everything else suffers.

As for the in your face type of targets at arm's length, I can and do shoot those with .20 splits but I don't think that is where a stage is one or lost.

[spook]

Ron and Neal, thanks for the info. I know that ultrafast splits are not what wins a match, but I just want to be able to do it if I want to, if that makes sense.

I don't have the illusion that I can beat Jerry Miculek in a couple of years or so, but I want to know why he can shoot .13 splits with a .357 magnum snubnose revolver, and I can't. I guess that just stubborn ol' me. If there's something I can't do and I want to be able to do it, I get to the bottom of it and find out why I can't

Neal, you told the story about the free ammo to me before. Pretty cool how that ability just sticks like knowing how to ride a bike. That could also mean it's more of a mental thing, than a physical ability.

[Flexmoney]

(from the Dave Anderson article, thus, from Ed McGivern's book)

Ed shoot 5 shoots into a fist sized group at 5 yards in 2/5 of a second.

That is .10 splits.

[spook]

Sorry for the thread drift, but how in the holy Lord's name did they measure that accurately in those days? .10 splits are incredible.

[Ron Ankeny]

spook:

I know where you are coming from, but I know why I can't shoot .13 splits with a revolver. I haven't worked on it long enough to maximize my potential and I don't think I ever will. As for Ed's amazing feats...I have seen one of his timing devices and it was crude at best. I wonder if anyone has ever checked the anitique timers against the new ones. I have heard both ways, yes they checked them and they are accurate, and no they haven't been checked because the curators won't allow it.

[Ron Ankeny]

Holy crap, I just did a double tap on the reply so quickly that I didn't even know it happened.

[Flexmoney]

They used an electronic device going at 60 cycles per sec....just kidding. I don't know what they used. Dave Anderson's article says they they had something connected to the trigger guard and it seems like it must have worked.

Man can't run a 4-minute mile.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Something I just thought of. I shoot a K-Frame. I have small hands. I don't feel in control when shooting an N-Frame. When I dry fire my splits feel slower with the N-Frame. I've never timed them. Also, my K-Frame has a 7 3/4 pound pull and the N-Frame has slightly over 8 pounds. I don't know if this means anything.

Bill Nesbitt

[Ron Ankeny]

Bill:

Darn right it means something, it means you know what you are doing. The K-frame rocks and I'll take it any day over the N frame. I bought the 610 because I have a closet full of long loaded .40 and nothing to shoot them in and I need to make major. If a guy wanted to shoot minor with a revolver I think the old K-38 with a six inch tube would be the way to go.

[spook]

Guess it's just going to take more work, analyzing and practice. I'm still 24 so, I still have many years to improve my shooting First I thought it was because I have really large hands and long fingers (big movement). Then I bought Miculeks tape. That guy has big hands too! Can't be that.

I thought of the N-frame vs. smaller frames too. It probably makes a difference, but I still think the 610 and 625 are the best setups for IPSC revolver. Plus Miculek shoots any revolver fast.

I did order some serrated triggers to replace the extra smooth triggers on my 625's. See if that makes a difference in finger placement during live fire.

Ron, how do you like revolver IPSC so far? Really have to work on those long courses, don't cha?

Guys, thanks for all the quick responses and insights. Back to the trigger.

Bjorn

[Flexmoney]

Bill:

Darn right it means something, it means you know what you are doing.

That is pretty much what Ken hackthorn just said about Bill in an article on the IDPA Nationals.

[Bubber]

Bjorn, You probably know this already or maybe have tried it. I grip as high as possible on the Revo so to make the distance from my trigger finger to the web of my hand as short as possible. This makes the stroke "feel" shorter and also it easier for me to pull the trigger. About the same as holding something close to the body as opposed to holding something at arms length. I like the smooth trigger better than the serrated one. Just my thoughts. Roger

[scooterj]

Ed's timer was very crude. Jerry was able to get it for a while to try to reproduce it so he could "officially" try for Ed's record.

He was unable to build his own and was not allowed to use Ed's timer.

If I remember right the old timer counted trigger strokes. Today's timers work off sound. Although it may be very slight, sound takes time to go from one place to another.

[Duane Thomas]

Although it may be very slight, sound takes time to go from one place to another.

Considering the timer was held only a few feet from the gun, I kind of doubt it made a difference.

[spook]

Roger, I've tried to grip the gun as high as I could, but it had two major disadvantages to me. The first was that the trigger reach was too short. It kind of cramped my hand/trigger finger. Second disadvantage was that it got my trigger finger in the position where I could only pull the trigger very high. I solved the first problem with a "custom made"grip. I just put epoxy on the grip and kept gripping the gun, to make a grip that was shaped to support the way I grip the gun. It looks like crap, but it works. I got the tip from Saul Kirsh during one of his courses. This led to a higher grip and better support in live fire. I'm still working on getting my finger lower on the trigger. I'm going to take the trigger reach thing in consideration, though. It makes sense to me. Thanks, Bjorn

If Ed's timer counted triggerstrokes, I can see how that could have been an advantage. He could have got the first shot "for free". But still amazing and something I doubt other people can reproduce.

BTW, The sound thing even played a role during the world shoot. Andit does matter. FWIW, I saw some calculations once on this board. It came down to this: If the timer was held 5 inches closer to Brodie McIntosh's head during one of the stages in the WSXIII, he could have beaten Todd Jarrett in the final results. They had the exact same amount of match points I believe.

[Duane Thomas]

If the timer was held 5 inches closer to Brodie McIntosh's head during one of the stages in the WSXIII, he could have beaten Todd Jarrett in the final results.

Oh come ON. You can't really believe that. The last I heard, timers didn't measure in picoseconds.

[spook]

Duane, that was my first reaction exactly. But the math attached made it plausible/realistic. I'll see if I can dig it up somewhere (it was on the old board).

[spook]

OK, did the math. If Brodie was 0.01 second faster on the first stage (I just picked the first) he would have been 2nd overall. Brodie was 0.0006 behind Todd in the final results.

Unfortunately timers can only make 0.01s measurements. 0.01s is about 10' for sound to travel. That's the smallest amount a timer can 'pick up'.

If timers were analog, or would be able to measure mor accurately, Brodie would have been 2nd if his time was 7.3899064667 instead of the measured 7.3900000000. That's 0.000094 second faster. With a perfect timer, that would be a difference of 0.094' (little over one inch) from his ears.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I often screw up calculations, because I'm kind of chaotic And I'm not very familiar with the imperial system .

So, Duane, you're right. It'wouldn't have made a difference, because:

1- Timers aren't that accurate (The timer should have been held 10 feet total further from Brodie's ears, then from Todd's ears during the whole match), and;

But it's still a tiny difference though.

BTW, sorry for the huge thread drift.

[RC51_Texas]

How fast can I pull the trigger on my S&W? Not fast enough to compete with it!! I've practiced with revolvers but just can't seem to get any faster??? Watch the videos of Jerry Miculek in action and it will make you want to put your Revolver down in shame. Eight (8) shots in 1 second and Twelve (12) shots - 6 shots/ a reload / and 6 more shots in 2.99 seconds??? How is that possible???? Some people are born with ability - I'm not!!! I know that he practices and has been doing it his whole life, but genetics have to play a role in his ability too!!!