Dropped Gun

[ErikW]

Let's pretend I am appealing my disqualification under 10.3.5 and you are my arbitration committee. Read my appeal and uphold it or deny it. Here is the stage description, followed by my appeal.

Stage description

I loaded and made ready and assumed the start position. At the signal, I used both hands to open the doors, which swung back and knocked my gun from my holster. I didn't draw my gun; I never even touched it. In fact, the course description and the R.O. said I couldn't draw until after moving through the doors and crossing the threshold. If the course would have allowed me to draw or allowed me to at least have a hand on my gun when I opened the doors, I could have prevented the range equipment (doors) from stripping my gun from my holster. I ask the committee to overturn my disqualification under rule 10.3.5, which says a competitor may not drop his gun or cause it to fall. I never dropped it because I never drew it, because the course description said I couldn't. I didn't cause it to fall; the range equipment caused it to fall. The conditions of 10.3.5 were not met!

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

I need to see the written stage briefing too.

[ErikW]

Sorry, I had embedded the diagram but not the text. Try the link. In reality, I think they had changed the description to emphasize moving through the doorway before drawing. I remember the R.O. saying you had to have one foot over the threshold line before drawing.

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

With all due respect to my mate Tom, the course designer, the stage briefing is not very clear. The more complicated the briefing, the more chances of errors occurring.

Are you supposed to use two hands to open both doors simultaneously or can you use two hands to open the door of your choice? Did the doors open inwards or outwards? Were the doors hinged on the inboard or outboard side?

In any case, despite the insufficient evidence provided, appeal denied.

Rule 10.3.5 includes the words "drops his handgun or causes it to fall". My guess is that the competitor's action of rushing through the doorway caused the gun to fall. Had he opened the doors as required then put his hand on the gun without drawing it before passing through the doorway, the problem could have been avoided.

Now, which way to Cheetahs ?

[shred]

I'd probably have to uphold the DQ, unless the prop did something out of the ordinary to knock the gun out of your holster. If you moved the door which then, because you moved it, knocked the gun out, I'd say you're responsible for it and "caused it to happen". If say, the doors collapsed entirely and thus knocked your gun out, then I might be a bit more lenient.

I've seen a couple DQ's from seated-start stages when the gun gets hooked on the chair and dumps on the ground at the start buzzer. I don't think anybody went to arb with "it wasn't me, it was the chair"

[EricW]

Unless the shooter is a photon and has the power of diffraction, how the heck does he make it through both doors? Do the hokey pokey?

[BDH]

Eric , my take is you had a gun hit the dirt during the COF, and 10.3.5 applies whether you touched the gun or not. It's just one of those unfortunate things. I had one of these about 6 weeks ago with a stage where you had to deal with a dummy. Well, the stage description wasn't written all that well so it 'allowed' competitors to try to throw the dummy (even though that was not the intent of the stage designer). I cautioned people about this before the stage but some tried it anyway. Sure enough, our MD comes through.... 'beep'..... throws the dummy...... it hooks his gun and launches it about 5 feet downrange. He never touched it.... the prop grabbed it.... but then again, he controlled the prop. Nothing like DQing your MD, he hasn't spoken to me since!

Vince , 10.3.5 seems all encompassing (with the exceptions of 10.3.5.1 & 2). It seems pretty clear that if the gun hits the dirt during the COF, the DQ is applied, period. No if's, and's or but's. I was trying to think of a situation where we would not apply this rule, kind of along the lines of Shred's comment about the prop doing something weird, but I can't really think of anything other than maybe RO interference knocking the gun out of the holster. Can you?

Speaking of props doing weird things (or maybe RO's doing weird things).... we had a stage yesterday with a long wall with several openings to shoot through. We also had wind gusts up in the 40 MPH range, and basically had to rebuild the stage when our squad got to it. Sure enough, I am in the box and get LAMR. I pull my gun, jack a round in the chamber (my gun is still unholstered pointing downrange), the wind comes up and starts to take down the stage, and the RO jumps out in front of me to save the stage! Of course, I just about stuck my muzzle in the mud, Flex insured I was clear, and we reset the stage. Certainly in that case, if the RO had knocked the gun from my hand, I would have protested any type of DQ....

[Flexmoney]

BDH,

I think there was a thread a while back (maybe before your time here) that basically said...even if the RO causes the gun to fall...the shooter is still DQ'ed.

(I wasn't the RO, by the way...I had just grabbed the clipboard).

I was a bit worried after that stage (our last) when we decide to do a group bagging of the guns...and as I had mine pointed down range, somebody heading in that direction.

Back to Erik's original question...

I think (especially from other threads on the subject) the shooter is completely responsible to keep the blaster in control. If it falls out...should have bought a holster that holds the gun better.

[Vince Pinto]

Brian,

In reply to your question about RO interference causing a gun to drop, please read Rule 8.6.3 which we wrote specifically to deal with such issues.

Unless the RO is Freddy Kruger armed with a chainsaw, if he bumps you and you drop your gun, I reckon you didn't have much of a grip on it.

And you're perfectly correct. If the gun hits the ground during a COF, you hit the showers. No exceptions.

[ErikW]

It seems the arb committee is unanimous in denying my appeal.

Anyway, this defense occurred to me while reading 10.3.5 with a "strict constructionist" mindset. I guess you could say a shooter caused it to fall by putting it in his holster, even if it fell a half-minute later or the RO knocked it out or a barricade fell on it.

However, were I on this imaginary arb committee, I might go by an even stricter reading of the rulebook. By DQing the shooter under 10.3.5 the RO asserts the shooter dropped the gun or caused it to fall. This assertion may not be questioned or appealed (11.2).

[Vince Pinto]

Erik,

Imaginary committee? Perhaps, but don't try to tell me this case is hypothetical ........

The Dark Side of the Force has Stormtroopers everywhere

[ErikW]

This is absolutely hypothetical, only inspired by actual events. At least two people lost their guns on this stage and at least one appealed his DQ. It wasn't me; I served on an arb committee. It raised some interesting questions.

[BDH]

(I wasn't the RO, by the way...I had just grabbed the clipboard).

Flex, I didn't mean to imply that you were the RO. Sorry if it came across that way. Actually, since I think that both of the RO's on the stage ran out in front of me to save the stage, you were the closest guy that 'engaged their gray matter' and said, 'oops, we have someone standing here with a loaded gun. I'd better clear them'. Me, I was so surprised, that I just pointed my muzzle straight into the dirt, and wondered what they thought they were doing!

In reply to your question about RO interference causing a gun to drop, please read Rule 8.6.3 which we wrote specifically to deal with such issues.

Okay, I'll take a look at this tonight, but this seems flat out wrong. In the hypothetical situation I described of course I didn't have a super firm grip on my gun, as I was loading it. I had the gun in my strong hand, a round in the chamber, and was reaching for a full mag when the stage blew down and people jumped forward. While the RO did not hit me, if he had run in to me, I would have been hit when I wasn't looking and from a direction I was not expecting anything. I 'doubt' that I would have dropped it, but if I did, I sure as hell would not think it was MY fault.

Also, since you and I have not in person, you probably don't appreciate my size (6'4", 300#), but if I tripped and ran into or fell on a competitor, most of them would lose that battle. Hopefully that will never happen, but if it did and they lost their gun, I sure as hell would have a tough time DQing them for it.

Anyway, I'll go check the rule.......

[Flexmoney]

Here is another thread I found on the "RO bump".

http://64.62.172.100/~brianeno/index.php?a...=27&t=3745&st=0

The info for this discussion is toward the bottom of the first page, and on into the second page.

[BDH]

Here's another situation I thought of.......

RO is running a shooter and bumps into the shooter causing the shooter to break the 180 (or 90, VP). Since there was contact, the RO can give the shooter a re-shoot, right? Oops, the shooter broke the 180 so he/she is DQ'd.

To me this sounds similar to the RO knocking the gun out of the shooters hand, so I assume that in both cases it is a DQ for the shooter. However, in both cases, I really don't see this as the shooter doing anything wrong. I've gotta take a look at the rule VP cited, because neither of these situations seem 'right' to me.

[Vince Pinto]

Brian,

This might be a dumb question but how can an RO behind you cause you to break 90 degrees backwards (uprange), unless the RO is magnetic ?

And, my young Grasshopper, read Rule 10.3.4 and tell me how many degrees are mentioned.

Yes, I know many people refer to "breaking 180", but these great unwashed masses probably also refer to Standard Division as "Stock Class" (which actually has something to do with cows).

[crazyaboutguns]

Brian,

This might be a dumb question but how can an RO behind you cause you to break 90 degrees backwards (uprange), unless the RO is magnetic ?

Unpredictable results of an individual bumping into another, i.e the RO tripping and falling onto the shooter,

could very well knock the shooter off his feet, and spin the shooter as he falls. This type of contact occurs

in every game of USA style tackle football, from junior high to the pros.

[BDH]

In reply to your question about RO interference causing a gun to drop, please read Rule 8.6.3 which we wrote specifically to deal with such issues.

I checked out 8.6.3 and see that that is the rule that covers the RO coming in contact with the shooter, and the RO 'may' allow a re-shoot. If there are 'no exceptions' for a gun hitting the dirt during a COF, then how does this apply? You certainly can not give him/her a reshoot, if you just knocked the gun out of their hand and were forced to DQ them.

This might be a dumb question but how can an RO behind you cause you to break 90 degrees backwards (uprange), unless the RO is magnetic ?

And, my young Grasshopper, read Rule 10.3.4 and tell me how many degrees are mentioned.

crazyaboutguns answered your first question, the same way as I would have. Basically, sh*t happens. But to the actual question.... if somehow an RO runs into the shooter, the shooter loses balance, swinging around trying to stay on his/her feet, and breaks the NINETY ..... they are DQ'd, correct? If so, it just doesn't seem fair, and I would hope an Arb committee would overturn this one.

yes, I understand 10.3.4 says 90 degrees (hey, I even called that out because I knew you would come after me on that ). However, even though calling it the 180 is 'technically incorrect' , it sure seems better than telling people to watch that they don't break the 90, and then have to explain what the hell you're talking about. I know, I know, part of my 'Junior Jedi' role to educate all those that I come in contact with.....

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but DQing someone because 'I' made a mistake, doesn't seem fair to me. I'll shut up now since I forced the thread drift....

[Shooter Grrl]

BDH - you and Vinny are 'bout the same size - and my money is on HIM if you two should collide

It's funny you should mention knocking someone over... I had a dream last night that I was RO'ing someone who backed up, onto my foot and then elbowed me in the face on my way to the dirt. Was kinda fun, I calmly yelled at him to stop, told my ARO to clear him and told him to get a new scoresheet while I toddled off to get my nose reset... sure hope this one wasn't "prophesy"

[BDH]

BDH - you and Vinny are 'bout the same size - and my money is on HIM if you two should collide 

Hmmmm, well since I haven't met him, I don't quite know what I am up against. Maybe if he comes to Bend (or the longshot is me going to Ecuador), we can have an East vs West good ole rasslin' match. Winner buys beers, or maybe the loser buys beers.... then again, maybe we will just talk about a rasslin' match, and drink the beers....