Steve Anderson Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Is a shooter allowed to remove his entire outer belt (with a holstered gun remaining holstered) outside of a safe area to make clothing adjustments? Gun is and stays holstered and is never touched. Don't tell me it's strongly discouraged or frowned upon. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 hi steve, this question was answered a month or so ago in the 3 gun stection. no! you can not remove your outer rig with holstered gun from your body. this is considered unsafe gun handling. lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Don't tell me it's strongly discouraged or frowned upon. Rule book fever...catch it! lynn, I missed that in the 3-gun section. Can you point me to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 flex, i couldn't find it either. i'll do another search. lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Is a shooter allowed to remove his entire outer belt (with a holstered gun remaining holstered) outside of a safe area to make clothing adjustments? SA, do you spend all your dry-fire time thinking up 'stump the RO' questions? Can you give me a preview of your 'stump the RO' question you have planned for the Blast?? Lynn, I'll be interested to read this when you find it and I hope the appropriate rule number is quoted (certainly not doubting you, I just don't have a rule book in front of me and I'm curious). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 paging vince, paging vince.. please pick up the white courtesy phone.. this rule comes into mind: 10.3.3 Handling a handgun at anytime except when in a designated safety area or on the firing line under the supervision of a Range Officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 2.4 Safety Areas 2.4.1 Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas as follows: 2.4.1.1 Casing, uncasing and holster unloaded firearms. 2.4.1.2 Practice drawing, "dry-fireing" and reholstering of unloaded firearms 2.3.1.3 Practice the insertion and removal of empty magazines and/or to cycle the action of a handgun 2.4.1.4 Conduct inspections, stripping, cleaning, repairs and maintenance fo firearms, component parts and other accessories. This section of "the book" makes no reference to the handling of a firearm in the holster. US 10.3.2 Unsafe Gun Handling - A discharge is defined as a bullet that has passed through the barrel of a competitor's firearm. Adetonation is defined as a round that goes off while in the chamber; but the bullet does not pass through the barrel. A discharge/detonation may be defined as unsafe gun handling as follows: US 10.3.2.1 Any discharge/detonation prior to the commencement or while loading, reloading, unloading or duing remedial action in the case of a malfunction. US 10.3.2.2 Any discharge/detonation during movement except while engaging targets. basically, Unsafe Gun Handling refers to discharge/detonation but... 10.3.3 Handling a handgun at anytime except when in a designated safety area or on the fireing line under the supervision of a Range Officer. Based on these rules, if you take off your outer belt with allied equipment still attached (holster and pouches) with a holstered firearm (clear firearm with trigger guard covered), it does not fall under 10.3.3 because you are not handling the firearm, you are handling the allied eauipment. If the unloaded firearm remains in its holster securely, it makes no difference whether if it is on your person or elesewhere. This is how I'm reading the rules. I could be wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 I agree with Big Dave. Too my understanding, unsafe gun handling is lmiited to the COF and has nothing to do with between stages... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Several years ago at the nationals it was declared forbidden to remove belt and holstered gun anywhere except at a safety area or on the line under the supervision of an RO. That was several years ago and a LOT of rules have changed since then. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 Somebody pleeeaasssseee take Steve outside and shoot him. Twice. There's no rule preventing the removal of an outer belt while the gun is still in the holster and, frankly, it's not an unsafe act. Remember a holster is a safety device. By the same token, grabbing your gun grip while it's in your holster is not considered unsafe either, provided you don't actually draw the gun, but it could be argued that touching your gun while it's in your holster is "handling". And Jake, "Unsafe Gun Handling" is definitely not limited to the COF. If you draw your unloaded gun in the clubhouse or car park, or load a magazine while you're in a safety area, you're toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted May 13, 2003 Author Share Posted May 13, 2003 What did I do do deserve a shooting? I just asked a question????? I've need a "re-tuck" many times during the match with no safety area around. I think I'll still ask the local R.O. first. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I've need a "re-tuck" many times during the match with no safety area around.I think I'll still ask the local R.O. first. SA, now that ole wise VP has spoken, it looks like you are good to "re-tuck" on every stage if need be! However, one thing for sure is that it never hurts to ask an RO anything ahead of time. None of us like surprises, and someone peeling off their rig with gun would definately surprise me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dminor Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 HI ALL, At a match a couple of years ago, a competitor did this at a Nationals. First, a competitor got a handicap pass so he/she could use their car to drive to the stages. This was approved by the match director. What happened is the entire squad that was with this competitor, got into the car and drove to all their stages. At this point the RM was called to the car twice to retrieve a dropped gun. The gun was in the holster and empty, but the entire belt, holster, mags, everthing was on the ground because the competitor had taken the entire rig off to be put in the trunk to proceed to the next stage. I seem to remember that there was a point at which the RM said "enough is enough". Common sense needs to rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Being a horizontally enhanced person myself, I fully understand the need to frequently "re-tuck" but I would never, not in a million years, remove my belt with my gun still in the holster. That's why we have safety areas and if you go to a match which does not have at least one safety area for every two stages (preferably one per stage), then that is the real problem. You guys have got to encourage range owners and match directors to "raise the bar" for IPSC matches, and one of the cheapest and easiest improvements to make are lots of well defined and clearly signmarked safety areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 You guys have got to encourage range owners and match directors to "raise the bar" for IPSC matches, and one of the cheapest and easiest improvements to make are lots of well defined and clearly signmarked safety areas. As your personally appointed 'safety area inspector' I will be inspecting Rayner's Range at the Buckeye Blast this weekend, and the report will be on your desk early next week. Hey Vinnie, what is my official title? 'Safety Area Inspector'? 'Chief Safety Area Inspector'? 'Uncle Vinnie's Personal Safety Area Inspector'? What?? If I don't have an official title, I may not be as effective on this mission...... Also, do I get a secret decoder ring or anything cool like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Official title? Denise told me she already crowned you Big Huggie (and I hope this has nothing to do with nappies). Of course once you join IROA, you'll become an International Big Huggie. Keep up the great work and soon I'll reveal the password and secret handshake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Steve, use the re-tucks as an excuse to get a new set of shooting clothes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Official title? Denise told me she already crowned you Big Huggie (and I hope this has nothing to do with nappies). Of course once you join IROA, you'll become an International Big Huggie.Keep up the great work and soon I'll reveal the password and secret handshake. Well, she probably didn't tell you that there are several 'big huggies' hanging around NROI. I'm just one of the pack.... As far as 'International Big Huggie'.... we can probably drop that one. I'm not sure that it would translate well and I would not want any misunderstandings causing an International incident! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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