kurtm Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 This thread seems to be doomed! Of all the threads that seem to have problems this one always seems to get deleted, or not updated. Anyway, does anyone know of a way to get the reservation company to respond to reservation requests? I have tried for 2 weeks now to get a reservation at the Hotel Valentino and have gotten absoluely NO reply! I know we are told to go through the reservation company but I need a room! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berettashooter Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Kurt have you tried to contact directly the Hotel? This is their address www.bellaumbria.net/hotel-Valentino See you in Terni Giovanni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 Kurt We've had loads of aggro with them as well. I know that the MD, Riccardo, has even been to see them for a face to face but they still seem pretty useless. You might like to mail a message to Skywalker who has advised that he wants to be kept posted on problems like this. We also had a problem with trying to make a payment - they won't accept credit cards for deposits, only bank transfers which isn't too clever. I'll email the MD and update him. Good luck in the meantime and I agree that you will probably be better off dealing with the hotel direct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 Kurt I've had a reply from the MD as below. If I hear anything further I'll let you know. Grazie Neil,I will try again to understand what's happening. Thank you very much. Riccardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ringram Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Yes, I have a nightmare trying to get into the best western myself. Apparently Im booked, but the bank details for payment dont tally with the bank this end. Ill email Skywalker and see if he can decifer whats going on.. Thanks Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloudy Overhead Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 I have booked at the Hotel Valentino through the ESC website, but according to this tread it sounds like there may be problems. Any recommendation on where to stay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted June 16, 2003 Share Posted June 16, 2003 Cloudy O. (Claudi-o, ), I think you were the 1st or 2nd registered competitor to ESC 2003, so I don't think you have any problem. If you wish, I can contact the reservations office and let you know if everything is OK for your reservation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 Skywalker67: Now that the stages have been posted, and all sundry detail is taken care of ( i.e. hotel arrangements, plan tickets, etc.). I thought I would ask a general question on the forum as others might want the answer also. The start position for most of the stages is "standing erect, relaxed". How is the shotgun being held? Are both hands on the shotgun? or is the shotgun being held at the balance point, horizontal to the ground in your strong or weak hand? The shotgun stages we usually run start with the shotgun in both hands muzzle elevated 45 degrees (or depressed 45 degrees), pointed down range. If they are doing it differently I would like to know so I can practice from that position for safety sake. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orimar3 Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Kurtm: All the positions you described are correct and may possibly be used in the ESC. It all depends on what the stage briefing will specify. And the briefing (to a certain extent) depends on the actual physical lay-out of the stage or COF. I can assure you that any start position decided on by the RM will have safety as the primary concern. See you very soon in Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 The authoritative voice of orimar3 (and you'll hear him a lot at ESC) has already stated my thoughts: it'll be a RM decision according to the stages setup. What I can say is that, here in Italy, we always stick with starting positions as listed in 8.2.1. of shotgun rules V3: 8.2.1 The Shotgun is loaded, made safe and held or placed as specified in the stage briefing. The competitor’s posture prior to the commencement of the stage shall be either one of the following as stated by the stage briefing or an alternative as stated by the stage briefing:Standing erect, relaxed and natural, with the shotgun in the ready condition, and held naturally in the strong hand only, barrel parallel to the ground, the muzzle pointing down range and with fingers outside the trigger guard. The other hand hanging naturally to the side. or The competitor’s posture prior to the commencement of the stage shall be standing erect and relaxed, with the firearm in the ready condition, and held in both hands, stock touching the hip bone, barrel parallel to the ground, the muzzle pointing down range and with the finger outside the trigger guard. Different stages may require the “ready position” to be prone, kneeling, sitting or as otherwise stated in thestage briefing. However, the “ready condition” of the shotgun stipulated here and the general outlines of the two “ready positions” will prevail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 17, 2003 Author Share Posted July 17, 2003 Great replies! That answers the question perfectly. I should have known to look in the rule book, but untill as of late I couldn't find it. Thanks! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Well Kurt, all I can say is make us proud in Italy, whoever heard of starting with your gun in one hand, I'll have to use some of that next year. Do well my friend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orimar3 Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Hi Guys, The ESC03 will be the first international IPSC Shotgun match to be held. Kudos to IPSC-Italy and FITDS for taking the big step in helping the development of the SG discipline on an international level. It is highly adviseable for all those intending to participate in the ESC03 to read up on the current version (2002.v3) of the IPSC Shotgun Rules. Should you have any questions regarding the rules, pls. post the question here on the boards and I'll make sure that IROA & the ESC RM (Steen Nitschke, Denmark) answers promptly. A copy of the rules can be found under "General Info/FAQ" of the ESC website. As I mentioned, this is the first time that we'll all get together to play the SG game. The more input on rules, the better it will be for the Match Officials to clarify any ambiguities, "grey areas" or rules that are not as clear as they should be. Steen Nitschke can also be reached at (info@stauning.dk). Pls. copy the ESC secretariat (info@esc2003.it) with your queries. See you all in Terni. DVC, Orimar3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Interesting to find out what "shotgun ready" position is defined by an other organization. I tried loading practice with "relaxed at side, shotgun in one hand", and it was not that easy to come up & load (if the start position happens to be an empty gun). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 Orimar3: I have 4 questions in reguard to the shotgun rules after reading them. 1. for the loaded ( 8.1.1) options 1 and 2 in limited auto division. May a shell be placed on the carrier? 2. Rule 5.3.4 in reguards to distance from torso. Many people are using forearm holders ( like a side saddle arrangement that fits on the weak side arm) for spare ammunition. Most of these types of carriers hold the shell on the out side of the forearm which would be farther than the 50mm from the torso unless the arm was rotated. Does this rule specificaly exclude these types of shell carriers? 3. Rule 5.3.5 Does this also apply to clip on shell carriers as long as the same belt is always worn? 4. Rule 8.8 Is an unloaded sight picture allowed befor loading? I couldn't find this anywhere. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 Orimar3: I have 4 questions in reguard to the shotgun rules after reading them. 1. Rule 8.1.1 loading options 1 and 2 in limited auto division. May a shell be placed on the carrier? This is not part of the magazine. 2. Rule 5.3.4 in reguards to distance from torso. Many people are using forearm holders ( like a side saddle arrangement that fits on the weak side arm) for spare ammunition. Most of these types of carriers hold the shell on the out side of the forearm which would be farther than the 50mm from the torso unless the arm was rotated. Does this rule specificaly exclude these types of shell carriers? 3. Rule 5.3.5 Does this also apply to clip on shell carriers as long as the same belt is always worn? Can the clip on holders be repositioned stage to stage? 4. Rule 8.8 Is an unloaded sight picture allowed befor loading? I couldn't find this anywhere. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Orimar / Skywalker, Guys, Just a SIMPLE question re the limited classes. The rule re max load of 7 rounds in the magazine, could you please clarify it for me, as I am mighty confused. How is this going to be interpretted at ESC. Does this mean the magazine CANNOT physically hold more than 7 shells, or does it mean that you cannot ever LOAD more than 7 shells throughout a stage. The question, and problem, arises as in the UK we tend to use 65mm length birdshot cases and 70mm slug cases. On restricting the magazine to not allow MORE than 7 x 70mm, you can still fit 8 x 65mm shells in the magazine. I understand that on a loaded start you cannot load more than 8 shells (whatever length) but the confusion arises on unloaded starts when physically we could load 8 x 65mm in the mag as the length will allow it. Likewise in a long stage the gun will allow us to physically put 9 x 65mm in the gun. The trouble is we have designed mag restrictors / cut springs / argued / bought / made short magazines, and generally fretted about this, and dont know the answer.... so Help me Obe-One Kenobi (and Mini me) you are our only hope.... cheers for any advice guys, see you next month. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orimar3 Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Hi Guys, Thanks for your questions. At the moment, the RM has come up with a checklist which contains the questions you have posted so far, as well as a few others. Emails are flying as we speak between the RM, IROA and the Shotgun Rules guys in coming out with what we hope to be the most acceptable and logical interpretation of the rules. The official interpretation will be posted on the ESC website, as well as this forum. Expect to see answers by next week at the very latest. In the meantime, we ask for your patience and to keep the questions coming. The more questions get answered prior to the match, the smoother we expect it to be. Of course, we could just get Skywalker to do the Jedi Mind trick on anyone who might think of filing for arbitration. "I demand an arbitratration"! "No you don't". "OK, I don't think an arbitration is necessary". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 23, 2003 Author Share Posted July 23, 2003 Orimar3: I guess I lied, I have more than 4 questions after all. Rule 8.1.1, option 2...loaded tube, empty chamber. In this condition the Benelli shotgun ( m1 super 90 and m1 field) will not run a shell out onto the carrier to enable one to cycle the bolt and manually load a shell unless one of 2 thigs happen. 1. The little tab that sticks down right by the trigger guard is pushed up allowing a shell to be ejected from the magazine onto the carrier. This can look alot like a "straight finger" violation to an R.O. and can lead to a match D.Q. ( it has happened over here befor!!) 2. The shooter pulls the trigger ON THE EMPTY CHAMBER!! and this causes the tab to be forced up and ejects a shell onto the carrier which can then be manually chambered. This is a finger straight violation but it is with an empty chamber, and it is one of 2 way the gun was intended to function!! Both of these situations can be eliminated when allowing a competitor to place a shell on the carrier befor hand!! Can this situation be clarified further? At no time while reading the rules does it state that for limited semi auto it is an 8 round start for 8.1.1 option 1. It only states 7 rounds in the magazine tube. Could this be further clarified in reguards to 65mm shells or placing a round on the carrier? Thank you kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Kurt The easy answer is that the 2003 IPSC rules were worded so as to place the restriction on mag tube capacity specifically with the intention to allow the Benellis to take advantage of the extra round on the carrier. At the time of writing there was a feeling that Limited Division should be an 8 round division but this placed an artificial restriction on Benellis. Most manufacturers decsribed their guns as having 8 round capacity but this was based on 2 3/4 inch cartridges and their springs and followers. For 2004 The SG Rules committee decided that this would be better described as 9 rounds max for the initial load (8 rounds max if an empty chamber) and not only did this level the playing field with the Benellis but also made sure that "out of the box" guns that can hold 9 rounds aren't unnecessarily restricted. For instance Mossberg 500s will hold 9 rounds if 2 1/2 shells are used. The 590 as well I believe and there are some Remington extension tubes that change from 8 rounds total to 9 rounds total depending on whether 2 3/4 inch or 2 1/2 inch cartridges are used. I know the US already had 9 as the limit and speaking to Mike V. this was partly because of the situation with the Benellis. So for this year we have to work with what we've got but next year it's worded better and is fairer all round. Having said all this, and while the intention is clear, Rule 8.1 (option 2) isn't as clear as it should be. I have already written about this subject to the RM and MD and I'm sure Orimar will pick up on this subject as well. Nevertheless I will raise the subject again and I'm due to write to the RM again soon anyway. Turning to your other (now redundent?) questions I would first ask- what "finger straight" rule? However, you would fall foul of 10.3.13 and possibly 10.3.14 unless you stayed static. 10.3.13 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading or unloading. 10.3.14 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in accordance with section 8.5. By way of some further info on this, I was RM at the Level III match at Terni last year and the extra round on the carrier wasn't an issue it was just the accepted practice. As soon as I hear anything relevant from the RM I'll let you know. In the meantime I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 23, 2003 Author Share Posted July 23, 2003 Neil: 10.3.13 is the rule I was triing to cite, however I didn't have the rule book right infront of me. Thank you for providing the number. The D.Q. happened when a shooter retrieved his shotgun, in option 2, and proceeded to the first shoot area, while hitting the tab and racking the bolt. The R.O. saw the finger motion and called it a violation of the above rule and also 10.3.14. Resulting in arbitration and eventual match D.Q. This is why I wanted clairification on this point. I hate this range lawer stuff but after seeing it happen, I would hate for it to happen to someone in Terni! I know the shooter that this happened to and even tried to help at the arbitration, but to no avail. The rest of your reply was enlightening and very appreciated, but leaves me wondering which set of rule we are following. I hope it is the set posted on the ESC web site. Mike is going to try to get me squaded with you guys, and it will be an honor to shoot with you and the rest! Thank you for your reply!!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orimar3 Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Hi Kurt, Yes, the current IPSC SG Rules can be found on the ESC website and will be the version we will use Italy. See you very soon. Orimar3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 (edited) Well, sorry about this guys, but at present we haven't still linked the shotgun rules applicable to the European Championship on ESC website. We have referenced them (Shotgun Rules V3) for information, but to download a copy of it you will have to resort to IPSC website. Ok guys, looks like I scored another mike... This rulebook is no longer available from the IPSC website. Neil has kindly provided a link to UKPSA website to download the rulebook. Edited July 24, 2003 by Skywalker67 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 Kurt Hitting the tab as you describe should never have resulted in a DQ. It's just a wrong decision. The tab is provided for a specific purpose. It lies alongside the trigger guard and it's use doesn't require the finger to enter the trigger guard. My comments about 10.3.13 were solely related to releasing the tab/round by pulling the trigger. The DQ for "fingering" the tab should never have been called. The RM should have overturned it. The Arbitation Committee should have overturned it. Were there any other factors involved? This action is not that disimilar to operating a button safety on the trigger group, or the action release button on (say) a Mossberg pump or a Winchester pump. These are all about as close to the trigger guard as the release tab on the Benelli. I was with Mike at a Match on Saturday and I've never seen him shoot better. We discussed then about seeing if we can get you squadded with us. I'm not sure we'll offer much competition but we'll enjoy your company. I suspect the only UK guys that would challenge you are shooting in Modified division and Mike and I are only normally shooting around 90-92% of their scores. Mikes problem is he's still climbing the ladder and he's meeting me as I descend it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 You flatter me sir, high praise indeed ! Orimar I see you are reading this site as I type, can we arrange for Kurt to shoot in our detail ?? Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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