Winchester USA ammo, which powder do they used?

[KeithB]

Anyone know which powder Winchester uses in their 45ACP 230GR FMJ white Box USA ammo?

Thanks

[HoMiE]

Most commercial ammo uses powders you can't buy.

[kevin c]

And my understanding is that the powder can change from one production run to the next. Basically, if the powder charge meets velocity and pressure criteria, the manufacturer can use it. That might not apply if the ammo is sold as something special, like a low muzzle flash tactical round.

Edited January 4, 2008 by kevin c

[gm iprod]

I was told once that it is a special commercial grade of ball powder. I pulled some apart to do some experimenting once and it is a ball powder that looks remarkably like 231 and or WST, can't remember what weight they used. So pull some apart, weight the charge and chronograph a bunch out of your gun. Buy some 231 and WST and see what one gives that velocity with that amount of powder and you have your answer or NOT.

This helpful hint brought to you by your local Winchester Powder dealer

[et45]

231 is a lot darker in color than WST.If you have some of both it would be easy to compare.

[PINMAN44]

231 is a lot darker in color than WST.If you have some of both it would be easy to compare.

Hey, I heard Winchester uses mostly Hodgdon powders... weird huh. Call Winchester and ask them, they won't tell you what Hodgdon powder. I thought they would use 231 as well.

[Allgoodhits]

231 is a lot darker in color than WST.If you have some of both it would be easy to compare.

Hey, I heard Winchester uses mostly Hodgdon powders... weird huh. Call Winchester and ask them, they won't tell you what Hodgdon powder. I thought they would use 231 as well.

W231 is definitely darker in color than WST. I find that it takes a few tenths more W231 to duplicate velocity of WST. W231 = kind of shiny, blackish grey. WST= tanish grey at least to my eyes.

Winchester/Hodgdon: I think it is the other way around. OLIN is the maker of the powder and it is sold primarily under the Winchester label, then later also under the Hodgdon labels. Some of the OLIN powders, I think, are made overseas. Australia rings a bell to me, but that may not be accurate! Most recently Winchester powders and load data have appeared on Hodgdon website, thus yet another corporate entanglement of some type.

According to various sources the powder (retail) that we use packaged in 1, 4, 8 lb packaging is what manufactures refer to as CANISTER POWDERS. The BULK powders that they use or sell in bulk to others may be the same as some canister powders, or there may be some slight differences. Some powders have been re-introduced with a name change. I don't remember exactly, but I think some of the WST, WSL & WSF powders previously had a numerical designator name, but I will not guess as to what they were. Perhaps someone else recalls. Think of some of the Olin/Winchester "numerical name" powders that are no longer offered, and that may be the answers.

The white box Winchester .45 ammo? I have never pulled any, but my guess would be that it is Olin/Winchester bulk variety equivalent to W231, or the old W230. Bullseye, W230, now W231 are very old excellent .45 ACP loads. There is probably no more traditional powder than W231 & BE for .45 and the .45 shooters ( aka 1911 shooters) going back more than 3/4 a century are also very traditional. For Winchester to not use a bulk powder, than a conventional pistol (bullseye) reloader could not duplicate with a retail canister would be a stupid move. Remember the .45 230 ball load was required exclusively in all DCM, EIC matches until the Beretta M9 was approved for same a 1/2 century later. Many still use the .45 ball in a 1911 for these matches, even though they may use the M9 9mm with a ball load.

If in doubt, don't!

MJ

Edited January 11, 2008 by Allgoodhits

[KeithB]

231 is a lot darker in color than WST.If you have some of both it would be easy to compare.

Hey, I heard Winchester uses mostly Hodgdon powders... weird huh. Call Winchester and ask them, they won't tell you what Hodgdon powder. I thought they would use 231 as well.

W231 is definitely darker in color than WST. I find that it takes a few tenths more W231 to duplicate velocity of WST. W231 = kind of shiny, blackish grey. WST= tanish grey at least to my eyes.

Winchester/Hodgdon: I think it is the other way around. OLIN is the maker of the powder and it is sold primarily under the Winchester label, then later also under the Hodgdon labels. Some of the OLIN powders, I think, are made overseas. Australia rings a bell to me, but that may not be accurate! Most recently Winchester powders and load data have appeared on Hodgdon website, thus yet another corporate entanglement of some type.

According to various sources the powder (retail) that we use packaged in 1, 4, 8 lb packaging is what manufactures refer to as CANISTER POWDERS. The BULK powders that they use or sell in bulk to others may be the same as some canister powders, or there may be some slight differences. Some powders have been re-introduced with a name change. I don't remember exactly, but I think some of the WST, WSL & WSF powders previously had a numerical designator name, but I will not guess as to what they were. Perhaps someone else recalls. Think of some of the Olin/Winchester "numerical name" powders that are no longer offered, and that may be the answers.

The white box Winchester .45 ammo? I have never pulled any, but my guess would be that it is Olin/Winchester bulk variety equivalent to W231, or the old W230. Bullseye, W230, now W231 are very old excellent .45 ACP loads. There is probably no more traditional powder than W231 & BE for .45 and the .45 shooters ( aka 1911 shooters) going back more than 3/4 a century are also very traditional. For Winchester to not use a bulk powder, than a conventional pistol (bullseye) reloader could not duplicate with a retail canister would be a stupid move. Remember the .45 230 ball load was required exclusively in all DCM, EIC matches until the Beretta M9 was approved for same a 1/2 century later. Many still use the .45 ball in a 1911 for these matches, even though they may use the M9 9mm with a ball load.

If in doubt, don't!

MJ

W231 is my favorite powder for 45acp

[warpspeed]

If you were going to try an duplicate the load, you will want to get a box and chrono it out of your gun to start with,

Then, pick a fast powder like WST and work up a load that matches the velocity.

Like was already said, i doubt they use the same powder everytime but look for the same velocity / pressure from their test fixture.

[mda]

Hey, I heard Winchester uses mostly Hodgdon powders... weird huh. Call Winchester and ask them, they won't tell you what Hodgdon powder. I thought they would use 231 as well.

Winchester no longer manufactures gunpowder. Winchester signed a license agreement with Hodgdon to produce, package, and distribute their brands in late 2005 early 2006.

MDA

[gm iprod]

Winchester Powders are made by St Marks Powders FL. Olin Corp owns or leases the rights to use the Winchester name and logo's on ammunition and reloading components.

Found this at http://www.wwpowder.com/data/propellants/msds/index.php

The following modern smokeless powders are manufactured for Winchester Smokeless Powders by St. Marks Powders.

WST

WSF

231

296

748

760

All of the above powders are SMP smokeless powder propellants as described on the following Spherical Material Safety Data Sheet dated 11/10/97.

St. Marks Powders

10101 9th Street North

St. Petersburg, Florida 33716

Transportation Emergencies Call Chemtrec 1-800-424-9300

Emergency Phone 1-850-925-6111

This Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) has been prepared in compliance with the Federal OSHA Hazard Communication Standard, 29 CFR 1910.1200. This product may be considered to be a hazardous chemical under that standard. (Refer to the OSHA classification in sec. 1) This information is required to be disclosed for safety in the workplace. The exposure to the community, if any, is quite different.

There is also a lot more at the site that helps.

St Marks Powders are also contracted to make most if not all of Hodgdons Ball / Spherical Powders.

Hodgdon has all it's other Powders (Pistol - Flake and Rifle - Extruded) made by ADI in Australia. Hodgdon also owns IMR Powder company outright and IMR gets all but one (as far as I can find out) of it's powders made in Canada. The odd one out is Trail Boss that is made in Australia.

Winchester ammunition usually uses powdes from St Marks, they may however get powder from other sources but it is unlikely, it would be most economical to use what they already own.

[Jim Watson]

I pulled down a WWB .45 and found it loaded with a rather fine grained Ball powder. The charge weight was not what you would use for any current Ball powder. It might have been WSL or it was more likely a bulk lot of Something Else not sold at retail.

I pulled a couple of Blazers, 9mm and .45. The powder looked like Bullseye and the 9mm load was about right for B.E. The .45 charge weight was below a hardball load of B.E., so either it was a light load or they were working off a bulk lot of B.E. with faster burn rate than cannister grade.

gmiprod is right. Hodgdon does not manufacture any smokeless powder. The get Spherical powders from St Marks in Florida and extruded & flake from ADI in Australia. They are also the US distributors for Winchester Ball powder out of that same plant in St Marks and for IMR powders made by Expro in Canada. The last time I looked it up, both factories, St Marks and Expro, were owned by General Dynamics.

I don't know why Hodgdon elected to label Trail Boss made by ADI as an IMR powder. Seems like it would have been a better fit in their own lineup.

[Rob Boudrie]

On the subject of powder rebranding...

Hodgdton H110 == WW 296

And, for those who lamented the passing of WW540 and WW576, this bit of trivial from the Hodgdon site:

Q. Does Hodgdon Powder offer powders similar to the discontinued Winchester 540 and 571?

A. Hodgdon's HS-6 and HS-7 are EXACTLY the same powders as 540 and 571 respectively. Olin (now Saint Marks Powders) manufactured these powder formulations for both Winchester and Hodgdon. Handloaders who used the Winchester 540 and 571 powders can safely substitute the corresponding HS-6 and HS-7 with no changes in data or performance.