Ipsc Plates

[shred]

Here's the scenario--

A competitor shoots at a freshly painted IPSC Plate and hits it close to or on the edge (there's a mark and witnesses), but plate does not fall.

The RO scores it as a miss, citing "All steel must fall to score" in the stage description.

The RM happens by and centerpunches it with the popper calibration gun, it falls.

The competitor protests, citing rule 4.3.1.3, which states, in part, "Metal plates must always fall or overturn when hit..", and since IPSC plates do not recognize power factor, the results of the calibration are irrelevant.

What's the correct call?

[lynn jones]

samething happend to my friend at the 2002 ms champ.

if the plate doesn't fall, it doesn't score. the calibration was a gift, it wasn't requied.

the call is a miss.

sorry

[Ron Ankeny]

Shred:

That's a good question. On the surface I would say if it doesn't fall, no hit. But, according to the rule you cited the plate must "always fall or overturn when hit..." so an argument could be made for a range failure. I wonder what constitutes a "hit". If a full bullet diameter strikes a plate it is bound to topple, but what about a partial bullet diameter? From the information you gave can we conclude that the RO would concede that the plate was hit? I am looking forward to an answer from BDH or Vince.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

It's a mistake to simply take the first 9 words out of the second sentence of Rule 4.3.1.3 and use them to justify a "It didn't fall, so it must be range equipment failure" position.

You need to read the whole rule and, if you do, you'll note the object of the rule is to say that if it turns edge-on or sideways then it's range equipment failure.

As you know, we don't calibrate plates and this is because they are generally expected to fall when hit fairly 'n' squarely. However Shred's post said it was an edge hit but we'll never know whether it was a full or a partial bullet diameter hit or even whether that particular bullet even made Minor.

Hence, if it didn't fall and it didn't turn edge-on or sideways, it's a miss.

[Ron Ankeny]

Duh, I kinda feel stoopid, lol.

[BDH]

I am looking forward to an answer from BDH or Vince.

Ron, hey, don't even put my name in the same sentence with Lord Vader!! I am merely a Junior Jedi, and while Obi Won has faith in me, I have much to study and learn!!

I did have this one though!

[Vince Pinto]

Grasshopper,

When you can take the pebble from my hand ........................

HEY! The pebble. Now gimme my damn watch back

[shred]

It's a mistake to simply take the first 9 words out of the second sentence of Rule 4.3.1.3 and use them to justify a "It didn't fall, so it must be range equipment failure" position.

You need to read the whole rule and, if you do, you'll note the object of the rule is to say that if it turns edge-on or sideways then it's range equipment failure.

The entire 4.3.1.3 in the USPSA 14th Ed as found online says "IPSC Plates (See Appendix D) shall not be used exclusively in any course of fire. Authorized paper targets or Poppers must be included to recognize power. Metal plates shall always fall or overturn when hit and must be designed and installed to prevent them from turning edge-on or sideways. Metal targets that turns edge-on or sideways when hit is not permitted." (yes, that grammar is there on the last sentence).

If the plate has an obvious center hit, what then? Where's the bit about R. E. F. for edge hits? (Actually I know the answer to that, but it's wierd-- the 14th edition rules on the IPSC site's last sentence of 4.3.1.3 do say R. E. F., but the ones on the USPSA site don't, and it's not an US-only rule. How'd that happen?) Regardless, it still doesn't say what to do if the plate's hit, but doesn't fall.

As you know, we don't calibrate plates and this is because they are generally expected to fall when hit fairly 'n' squarely.

The US 7th Edition rulebook (1996 or so) said "6.04 METALLIC TARGETS (i) Shall always fall or overturn to score when adequately hit and must be designed so as not to permit them turning edge-on or sideways. "

Why did the word "adequately" get removed from the latest rulebook? Did somebody want inadequate hits to count? Should it be put back in?

[Paul B]

It's interesting how much variety there is in plates with the same 8" diameter. I've seen plates as thin as 1/4" and as thick as 1/2". The bases vary quite a bit also with some being much bigger than others and some longer back to front than side to side.

All of this will act to some extent to vary what will happen with an edge hit and how much of an edge hit will make the plate fall. Still, I've never seen a plate with enough mass to absorb a full diameter hit from even a 9mm and not fall.

I say if there was nothing else holding the plate on it's stand, if it doesn't fall it's a miss. Conversely a standardized weight and base dimensions might eliminate some arguments. The same thing goes for poppers - anyone notice how slow the really thick poppers fall?

[Vince Pinto]

Shred,

As I have explained previously, the USPSA did not adopt any of the rule improvements adopted by the rest of the world at the General Assembly in South Africa last year. For your information, the subject IPSC rule changed from:

Old: 4.3.1.3 IPSC Plates (see Appendix D) shall not be used exclusively in any course of fire. Authorized paper targets or Poppers must be included to recognize power. Metal plates shall always fall or overturn when hit and must be designed and installed to prevent them from turning edge-on or sideways. Metal targets that turn edge-on or sideways when hit are not permitted.

to:

New: 4.3.1.3 IPSC Plates (see Appendix D) shall not be used exclusively in any course of fire. At least one authorized paper target or popper must be included in each course of fire. Metal plates shall always fall or overturn when hit and must be designed and installed to prevent them from turning edge-on or sideways. Metal targets which turn edge-on or sideways when hit are not permitted and shall be treated as range equipment failure.

[shred]

Thanks Vince. I was wondering where that came from.

I'm still not convinced that covers a plate with a visible hit that didn't fall, but it's an improvement.

For these purposes, imagine a plate hinged at the bottom like on a plate rack-- it can't turn, but hits in different places will apply varying amounts of falling-power to the plate.

For example, a hit low down will need more smack to flip it than one higher up. If the plate gets tilted too far forwards, a low, minor hit may not do the job. On a popper, we'd get the calibration gun and go check, but the rules say nothing I can see except "must fall when hit" for plates, and even that's not clear.

[Vince Pinto]

Shred,

I've proposed the following wording for the next rulebook and I trust this will, for once and for all, remove any doubts:

4.3 IPSC Approved Handgun Targets - Metal

4.3.1 Approved metal targets used in IPSC Handgun matches are as follows:

4.3.1.1 IPSC Poppers, which must comply with the dimensions and be calibrated as specified in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to recognize power.

4.3.1.2 IPSC Mini Poppers, which must comply with the dimensions and be calibrated as specified in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to recognize power and are intended to simulate regular sized Poppers placed at greater distances.

4.3.1.3 Pepper Poppers and Classic Poppers must not be included in the same course of fire. It is recommended that IPSC poppers which fall forwards be used.

4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix XX), however metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. Metal plates must not be used exclusively in a course of fire. At least one authorized paper target or Popper must be included in each course of fire.

4.3.1.5 When hit, metal targets must fall or overturn to score. Metal targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways when hit will be treated as range equipment failure.

4.3.1.6 Metal penalty targets must be constructed either to remain upright or to fall or overturn when hit (see rule 9.4.2). If designed to fall or overturn when hit, any such metal penalty targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways when hit will be treated as range equipment failure.

Note: The reference in 4.3.1.4 to "various sizes" is a change we've proposed whereby rather than having only two fixed sized plates, we'll give a range of sizes to allow course designers more creativity (e.g. something like round plates from 15cm to 30cm diameter, square or rectangular plates with sides from 15cm to 30cm long).

[shred]

Hmm.. I still don't get a good sense of what to do with a plate that has a bullet mark but didn't fall. Maybe add "full bullet-diameter" before "hit" in 4.3.1.5. Then the only arbitration option becomes "was it a full bullet-diameter hit?", and with any reasonably constructed plate, if it's even close to a full diameter, it should go over and thus there shouldn't be a problem unless the plate has somehow become defective since it was installed.

I like the option for plate size variety.

I don't understand the no mixing classic and normal poppers rule, but I don't understand say, the French, either.

[Vince Pinto]

Hmm.. I still don't get a good sense of what to do with a plate that has a bullet mark but didn't fall.

See 4.3.1.4 and the words "however metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges", which means:

1) If you hit it and it falls, it scores.

2) If you hit it and it turns edge-on or sideways, it's range equipment failure (i.e. re-shoot).

3) If you hit it and it doesn't fall, then shoot it again until one of the above occurs (or it's a miss).

We cannot use the expression "full (or partial) bullet diameter" in respect of metal targets because, unlike with paper targets, you cannot tell the difference.

[shred]

Ok, I'm still not getting this..

What happens if the plate truly becomes defective during the match? Say, it falls into particularly sticky mud and glues itself to the stand for the next shooter. Or the resetter bonks the stand or resets it improperly so it now tilts too far forward and won't fall. Or a chunk of lead gets stuck in the hinge so it won't fall. Or an errant shot hits the stand and bends it out of whack. Or the plate is too heavy for 125.0 PF Minor loads and nobody tested it with those (in the new rule, does anybody have to calibrate plates, ever?). Maybe it's tied to an activator which has been set improperly. Something like this is going to happen.

Is the poor shooter supposed to hammer on it until it falls no matter what?

[Vince Pinto]

Shred,

OK, let me give it one last try. When you shoot a plate, only three things can happen:

(1) It falls down (No problem), or

(2) It turns edge-on or sideways but does not fall down (Re-shoot), or

(3) None of the above (so shoot it again or take the Miss)

And no, plates are not calibrated, they cannot be challenged, they never have been calibrated or subject to challenges, and the greatest minds in IPSC (and me too!), don't think there's a need to calibrate plates. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but that's the decision.

Finally a word of advice: Don't use hinged metal targets (i.e plates or poppers). If you allow them to be "free-standing", the chances of failure reduce (in my experience) by 95%.

[shred]

Well, unfortunately I am unable to influence all the match directors at every match I go to and am not rich enough to replace the hundreds of hinged plates that are already in existance in this area, so that advice won't do me much good unless I'm the MD.

I say there still a hole here should a plate become stuck during a match for whatever reason, y'all seem to be saying there's no recourse to the shooter besides bend over and take it. My take is "must fall or overturn when hit" isn't happening, so the target's defective. Seems to be going against common sense to give a shooter a 'miss' after they've rung a plate six times.

I'm sorry the "Great minds of IPSC" don't see it's a problem, but I've seen it happen twice this year already at big matches. What's wrong with adding a word or two to fix what may or may not be a problem? Heck, put "adequately" back in. That's one extra word. I don't care if they're calibrated or not (and hope they aren't), but there's gotta be some way for the RO to determine a stuck plate besides shooting it until you bend it sideways.

"Hang on a second Mr RO, I'm going to go get my 50 AE".

Oh well, if I can't convince Vince, I'll live..

[Jake Di Vita]

"Hang on a second Mr RO, I'm going to go get my 50 AE".

If at first you don't succeed, blow a hole through it.

[mcginnes]

... the chances of failure reduce (in my experience) by 95%.

Ok, so we know that plates do fail. Yet,

When you shoot a plate, only three things can happen:

(1) It falls down (No problem), or

(2) It turns edge-on or sideways but does not fall down (Re-shoot), or

(3) None of the above (so shoot it again or take the Miss)

So then, if a plate didn't fall or turn edge on, it wasn't hit? Surely we are not that far from the real world.

A plate failing is in catagory number 3. So, shoot it again (and again and again), or take a miss. If that is really how the rules read, then the rules are broken and the rules committee needs to fix them.

A plate that turns edge on and a plate that doesn't fall are both against the rules (well, the same rule:4.3.1.3). The only differences that I can see between a plate that won't fall and one that is turned edge on are: it's pretty easy to tell when a plate is edge on, and the rules give a remedy when a plate turns edge on. The same remedy should apply to a plate that doesn't "fall or overturn." All that is needed is a test to determine if the plate failed.

[Vince Pinto]

Michael,

So then, if a plate didn't fall or turn edge on, it wasn't hit?

As you well know, that's not what I said. If a plate is hit and it doesn't fall or turn edge-on or sideways, this does not necessarily mean the plate is faulty. The hit might have been from a partial bullet diameter or the round fired might not have had sufficient power to make Minor, but of course there's no way to check that particular round.

A plate failing is in catagory number 3.

No. A plate failing is in category 2. See above for other possible explanations for a plate failing to fall when hit.

A plate that turns edge on and a plate that doesn't fall are both against the rules

No. A plate that doesn't fall does not necessarily mean the plate is at fault. It could be the ammo.

All that is needed is a test to determine if the plate failed.

And what test would you suggest? Bear in mind that every rules committee since Adam was a young lad has rejected calibration challenges, as does the current rules committee.

Remember if a plate (or popper) is faulty, it's highly likely that the first shot will loosen whatever was preventing the target from falling, so a calibration shot will face less resistance than that experienced by the competitor when he first shot the target. This is why savvy competitors who accept conventional wisdom will always re-engage a metal target which does not fall, because the chances of a calibration challenge succeeding (i.e. the target does not fall when tested) are, in my experience, incredibly low.

For example, there were +90 calibration challenges called against poppers at WSXIII but in 100% of the cases the popper fell down, and the competitor incurred a miss. And most competitors were later heard muttering "Dammit, I should've taken an extra nanosecond to re-engage the target rather than lose 10 points".

I'd also add that no amount of rule writing can compensate for Match Directors or course builders who use crappy metal targets. Your argument should be with them, not with the rules committee.

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

That is all well and good, but take a listen to what your customers are telling you.

They are NOT bitching and whining. (nor are they attacking you personally)

They have a very legit point.

A plate is something that has to fall down to score. But, there are instances where the shooter does their job...and the plate still won't fall. The shooter gets dinged for something that they have no control over.

That isn't right.

[JRBean]

Last year at the Area 4 match they had a stage with 2 Texas stars( a five armed spinning plate rack that can change direction and speed depending on which order you engage the plates and plates must fall off the arms to be scored). We were told before the beginning of the stage that they were having problems with plates hanging on the retaining clips if they were not hit with a full diameter hit toward the center and that it would be scored a miss if you did not shoot it until it fell.

As I shot the last plate on the first star and proceeded to move to the next I could see that the plate was still hanging. Hoping that the swinging motion of the star would work it loose I finished out the stage without taking the extra time to shoot it off. No such luck. Upon inspection I had hit the plate toward the outer edge( not on the edge just not in the center either). The splatter mark was the same size on this plate as all the ones that fell and it was hit with a 115gr. bullet traveling nearly 1500fps. Still I was scored a miss.

Personally I would consider that range failure but when your on somebody else's turf you have to play by there rules. I also thought it kind of sucked to encounter something like this at an Area match.

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

"My customers" are people in 70 different regions and I listen and respond to all their views, 7 days a week. However as there's not a single issue in IPSC where there's a unanimous opinion, decisions need to be made, one way or another.

You win some and you lose some, and that includes me. There are issues on which I have very strong views but, once I've been outvoted, I accept the majority decision and I get over it.

Secondly I haven't accused anyone of "bitching", "moaning" or attacking me personally, and I have no idea why you've reached that conclusion. Moreover I don't think the tone of my replies are aggressive, offensive or dismissive. The fact that my replies have not been what some people have wanted to hear is neither here nor there.

I've merely told subscribers the opinion of the rules committee, none of whom wants to calibrate plates. We didn't change anything by the way, because that's the way it's always been. Of course that's not good enough reason not to change things now but, having again discussed the matter at length, the decision was taken to maintain the status quo.

Nonetheless, if anyone thinks that I'm blocking their views from getting a fair hearing, feel free to contact overall Rules Chairman Mike Voigt at president@uspsa.org to express your views and/or your disatisfaction with me.

I assure you there'll be no hard feelings from me if you do, but I'm done with this subject here.

[mcginnes]

The question is, "What about defective plates?" Not partial hits, not calibration, not weak loads. Just this: What do you do about a plate that just won't gosh darn fall over when you hit it.

Let me cut to the chase and suggest some wording for rule 4.3.1.3. This is the simplist solution I could think of, so there is room for further discussion.

add: "If, in the sole opinion of the RO, the plate was adequately hit and failed to fall or overturn, the RO shall declare range equipment failiure, and the competitor shall reshoot the course."

No calibration test needed, no protests by the shooter to the MD. If it looks like an edge hit, a weak round, or anything other than a faulty plate, the RO doesn't have to call it range failure. It also puts the onus on the shooter to make sure that the RO sees that he hit the plate adequately, which he can do by hitting it again.

Ok, that's all that really needs to be said. The rest is a my reply to Vince's reply to me. If you don't want to hear it, I completely understand and you can stop reading here.

Michael: So then, if a plate didn't fall or turn edge on, it wasn't hit?

vince: As you well know, that's not what I said.

There is a question mark there because I don't think that's what you meant, but that is what you said. Of the three possibilities you gave, "The plate is defective, and does not fall or overturn when hit" was not an option. Since a plate "shall fall or overturn when hit" the only logical conclusion that can be made is that defective plates don't exist, so a plate that doesn't fall or overturn, (or turn sideways) was not hit. This does agree with what the rules say right now.

If a plate is hit and it doesn't fall or turn edge-on or sideways, this does not necessarily mean the plate is faulty. The hit might have been from a partial bullet diameter or the round fired might not have had sufficient power to make Minor, but of course there's no way to check that particular round.

So a plate must be (just pulling a word out of my hat here) adquately hit.

A plate failing is in catagory number 3.

No. A plate failing is in category 2. See above for other possible explanations for a plate failing to fall when hit.

Not necessarily. If a plate fails to fall or overturn, but doesn't turn edge on, then it is not in category 2, so it is in category 3. There is nothing in your category 2 about failing to fall when hit.

A plate that turns edge on and a plate that doesn't fall are both against the rules

No. A plate that doesn't fall does not necessarily mean the plate is at fault. It could be the ammo.

But IT COULD BE THE PLATE! This is the problem we are trying to discuss here. As Shred said, "What happens if the plate truly becomes defective during the match? Say, it falls into particularly sticky mud and glues itself to the stand for the next shooter. Or the resetter bonks the stand or resets it improperly so it now tilts too far forward and won't fall. Or a chunk of lead gets stuck in the hinge so it won't fall. Or an errant shot hits the stand and bends it out of whack."

All that is needed is a test to determine if the plate failed.

And what test would you suggest? Bear in mind that every rules committee since Adam was a young lad has rejected calibration challenges, as does the current rules committee.

I'd also add that no amount of rule writing can compensate for Match Directors or course builders who use crappy metal targets. Your argument should be with them, not with the rules committee.

The rules do deal with "crappy metal targets." It says you can't use them (Assuming that plates that don't fall or overturn when hit are crappy metal targets.) What it doesn't say is how you can tell if a metal target is crappy or what to do about it. Here is one possible solution (again):

Add to rule 4.3.1.3: "If, in the sole opinion of the RO, the plate has been adequately hit and failed to fall or overturn, the RO shall declare a range equipment failiure, and the competitor shall reshoot the course."

[Flexmoney]

mcginnes,

Good points.

I'm not for the RO making the "judgement call" though.

I'd whip out the calibration gun and whack it once.