Ipsc Plates

[mcginnes]

Unfortunately, hitting it with the calibration gun seems to have been ruled out (no pun intended.) That being the case, the RO is the only person in a position to say that the plate was (adequately) hit, but didn't fall. For the shooter, it means that you had better keep trying to knock down the plate until everybody knows something is wrong.

[shred]

I'm all for just sticking "Adequately" back into the rule. If the RO says it wasn't adequate, go ask the RM. If they don't think so either, go ask the Arb Comm. Leaves it open to some amount of RO "interpretation", and they may not even be looking at the plate in question when it's shot at, but I think it's better than it is now.

[mcginnes]

Shred,

How are the MD or the Arb. Comm. going to tell if it was 'adequatley hit?'

[shred]

Big black mark on the front? Lack of marks? Witnesses? Expert testimony? The shooter could always pull the plate and really annoy the MD.

[Vince Pinto]

OK guys, here are the latest rules I've drafted to deal with the matter of "stubborn plates", and I hope you'll agree it resolves the problem once and for all:

4.3.1 Approved metal targets used in IPSC Handgun matches are as follows:

4.3.1.1 IPSC Poppers, which must comply with the dimensions and be calibrated as specified in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to recognize power.

4.3.1.2 IPSC Mini Poppers, which must comply with the dimensions and be calibrated as specified in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to recognize power, and are intended to simulate regular sized Poppers placed at greater distances.

4.3.1.3 Pepper Poppers and Classic Poppers must not be included in the same course of fire. It is recommended that IPSC poppers which fall forwards be used.

4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix D1), however metal plates must not be used exclusively in a course of fire. At least one authorized paper target or IPSC Popper must be included in each course of fire.

4.3.1.5 Metal targets must always fall or overturn to score. Metal targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways when hit will be treated as range equipment failure.

4.3.1.6 Unlike IPSC Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. Therefore if, in the opinion of a range officer, a metal plate has been adequately hit but it fails to fall or overturn, he may declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified.

4.3.1.7 Metal penalty targets designed to fall or overturn when hit, but which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways, will be treated as range equipment failure.

4.3.1.8 Metal penalty targets designed to remain upright when hit must be repainted after each competitor ends their attempt at the course of fire, failing which subsequent competitors must not be penalised for hits visible on their surface.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Of course the RO deciding on what is "adequately" is a judgement call, but I expect our cadre of ROs will use their best and fairest judgement on those rare occasions when this rule might be invoked.

And Michael, let me tell you that 4.3.1.6 above (which mirrors your suggestion), was originally proposed by me in 1999 and again in 2002, but it was rejected both times.

Without going into detail, let me just say that yesterday I managed to beat into submission the strongest and most vocal oppponent of this rule. I've got a few scars, but I'll live.

[ErikW]

...must declare range equipment failure. Otherwise they have weasel room. Your proposed 4.3.1.6 effectively is no different than the current rulebook, which allows the RO to declare R.E.F. It only has teeth if they are compelled to do so.

Also, I think the RO, CRO, and RM should all have the authority to make that declaration, with any steel target. The RM should be the highest authority to determine whether a steel target was actually hit, which may not be appealed. Whether or not range equipment failure occurred may be appealed (arbitrated).

P.S. What's with all the different poppers? IPSC, IPSC Mini, Pepper, Classic. Are they being renamed? Right now, there are Pepper Popper and Mini Popper, and Classic Popper and Mini-Classic.

[shred]

Vince rocks! I figured he was going to mutter something about "effing morons than can't design proper plates" and wander off. I'll have to tell Voigt to nevermind about the rope..

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

I fear the shooter might argue (swear up and down) that they did hit that plate...so it must be broken. And, if the RO was watching the gun...

How about wording to the effect that if the plate is "clearly broken" or has "clearly malfunctioned"...then there must be a reshoot?

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

It doesn't matter how much the competitor screams. The RO has to see the plate refuse to fall before he can declare REF.

Hell, if we're gonna start accepting whatever a competitor declares, a lot of single holes in targets will be scored as 2 Alpha, and we'll never have misses again.

And using the words "clearly broken" still requires RO observation, the same as "adequately hit".

There also seems to be a "thing" going around that RO's are supposed to be fixated, almost trance-like, on watching the gun. If I'm your RO, I'll be standing out of your field of view looking over your strong side shoulder. In that position, I can see you, your gun and the target you're engaging.

[BDH]

There also seems to be a "thing" going around that RO's are supposed to be fixated, almost trance-like, on watching the gun. If I'm your RO, I'll be standing out of your field of view looking over your strong side shoulder. In that position, I can see you, your gun and the target you're engaging.

Sure, most of the time, but not always. I had a stage at the FGN last year where because of one of the shooting positions, and the way the targets were arrayed, it was very difficult to stay out of the competitors way, watch the gun and see the targets. In any case, I always have my primary focus on the gun, and try to keep some peripheral vision on the targets. However, if something has to give, my focus stays with the gun.

[shred]

There's always other witnesses, impact marks, loud ringing sounds, etc. It may not be 100% scientific, but it's not like the RO needs to be standing next it at point of impact to make a reasonable determination.

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

Not all the RO's have your fortitude. Experienced shooters (and those that can't except they missed) can...and do...bully the RO's.

Give the RO's a bigger bat (with the rule wording).

(I'll try to get them all to eat their spinach too. )

[BDH]

There's always other witnesses, impact marks, loud ringing sounds, etc.  It may not be 100% scientific, but it's not like the RO needs to be standing next it at point of impact to make a reasonable determination.

Agreed.......

[Ron Ankeny]

I have been giving this a lot of thought and I say...don't do it Vince. If it ain't broke don't fix it. The rules are just fine the way they are.

[Vince Pinto]

And the defence rests! The opinions here range from:

1) It ain't broke, so don't fix it. You keep shooting until the plate falls (Ron)

2) The plate should be calibrated (Flex)

3) The RO should decide if it's "adequately" hit (Shred, Michael)

4) No discretion for the RO. Mandatory reshoot (Erik)

5) The reshoot should only be given if the plate is "clearly broken" (Flex)

6) Let's abolish all metal targets (Me!)

Are we having fun yet?

[Sterling White]

This very thing happened at the Space City not but a month ago....the shooter edged a freshly painted plate while running mach 9 with his hair on fire. Leave the rules alone....as a student of this sport - call your shot, follow thru, and do not trust you ears on steel. Its the responsibility of the shooter to make sound hits. If a shooter edges paper outside the D perfs....its a miss so quit yer bitchin and shoot straight.

[Flexmoney]

Ok...

here are my three things...

1. plates falls (score the hit)

2. plate doens't fall (score the miss)

3. plate is broken (reshoot)

How tough is that?

[mcoliver]

I don't think anybody will ever BREAK a plate with our wimpy loads...teeheehee

Sorry Flex, can't help it...I'll shut up now.

[Flexmoney]

I have had plates break.

I think Steve Anderson broke a couple at his last practice session. (different range...different plate rack)

Things break.

As the rule sits now, the shooter is penalized if a plate breaks and doesn't (or can't) fall.

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

Not true. If a target visibly breaks during a COF, it's range equipment faliure under the current and future rules.

[Flexmoney]

Shred asked this (on PAGE ONE!)

Ok, I'm still not getting this..

What happens if the plate truly becomes defective during the match? Say, it falls into particularly sticky mud and glues itself to the stand for the next shooter. Or the resetter bonks the stand or resets it improperly so it now tilts too far forward and won't fall. Or a chunk of lead gets stuck in the hinge so it won't fall. Or an errant shot hits the stand and bends it out of whack. Or the plate is too heavy for 125.0 PF Minor loads and nobody tested it with those (in the new rule, does anybody have to calibrate plates, ever?). Maybe it's tied to an activator which has been set improperly. Something like this is going to happen.

Is the poor shooter supposed to hammer on it until it falls no matter what?

Vince replied:

Shred,

OK, let me give it one last try. When you shoot a plate, only three things can happen:

(1) It falls down (No problem), or

(2) It turns edge-on or sideways but does not fall down (Re-shoot), or

(3) None of the above (so shoot it again or take the Miss)

Vince...are you now saying there is a (4)th alternative?

3. plate is broken (reshoot)

[Vince Pinto]

My Dear Flex,

I'm starting to think that plates have become your mission in life. OK, let's recap:

Yes, I do recall Shred's questions on page one, but did you notice he was asking about stubborn plates which do not fall when hit? He did not raise the issue of frangible targets masquerading as metal plates which shatter when they're shot.

I believe such "plates" are called "Clay Pigeons" in other shooting sports, so don't let the guys in the Discount Target Section of Wal-Mart trick you like that. Scratch off the white paint and you'll see the underlying colour is orange.

Anyway, Shred specifically quoted part of Rule 4.3.1.3 which currently says "Metal plates shall always fall or overturn when hit ...".

I replied: "It's a mistake to simply take the first 9 words out of the second sentence of Rule 4.3.1.3 and use them to justify a "It didn't fall, so it must be range equipment failure" position. You need to read the whole rule and, if you do, you'll note the object of the rule is to say that if it turns edge-on or sideways then it's range equipment failure".

Then there was a whole bunch of stuff which again focussed on plates which do not fall when hit. Some guys said we should give the RO discretion for "adequate" hits, other guys said we should calibrate plates and other guys said the competitor keep must shooting until the plate falls (the status quo).

After considerable discussion on the subject of plates which do not fall when hit, you suddenly raised the issue of what I call "frangible targets masquerading as metal plates which shatter when they're shot" (damn those Wal-Mart guys!).

Any target which visibly snaps in half (or even thirds) during a match is classified as Range Equipment Failure. This includes wooden uprights holding a paper target which gets shot and shatters into smithereens (is that a real word?).

However we do not currently consider "stubborn" plates as REF because plates which do not fall when hit may be the result of ammo purchased from the other tricky guys at the Discount Ammo Section of Wal-Mart (I call such rounds "BB Bullets"). Of course being a responsive kinda guy, I drafted a new rule to deal with plates which do not fall when hit:

4.3.1.6 Unlike IPSC Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. Therefore if, in the opinion of a range officer, a metal plate has been adequately hit but it fails to fall or overturn, he may declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified.

Are you with me? Now please stop giving me grief over plates or I'll have to buy a Flex Voodoo Doll and stick pins in it.

Hey, I wonder if they sell them at Wal-Mart?

[Flexmoney]

Where in the hell did you get the idea that the plates were busting apart and flying all over the range???

Does "break" somehow mean turn to dust all of the sudden???

Lots of things "break" on the range...I don't know of ANY that turn to dust.

Give me a break. (bad pun)

From the bottom of the first page of this thread(where I quoted Shred, above), the discussion turned to what happens when a plate is hit (lets call it, for the sake of clarity) in the most perfect fashion...(and to be absurd) and then is hit in the most perfect fashion with 8 more rounds...and doesn't go down. This is obviously (to me) a "broken" plate.

From what I read...it sounded like the shooter was out of luck in that situation?

Your new rule proposal seems to cover the issue now. Good job.

BTW, get your doll here.

[BDH]

BTW, get your doll here.

Flex, I would suggest the official R. Lee Ermey '12" Motivational Figure'. Although, be forewarned....... "This version is RATED 'R' for 'salty' language."

[Flexmoney]

BDH,

LOL...that is the one I was looking for. Pretty cool.

You will love this...

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jacket.html

(load the sound board)