Benelli, can't decide...

[oregonshooter]

Thanks again for all the help. I've got an order for an M2 field (blk) with comfort stock for $1035.00

I'm looking at getting th following from Cactus Tactical also:

1. Nordic Components +5 Shells $79.99

2. Nordic Components Benelli Speed Button $9.99

3. Nordic Components 12 Gauge Shotgun Extension Tube Clamp $30.99

4. Dave's Metal Works Benelli / Beretta Oversize Safety Button $25.99

Thought about Dave's OS bolt handle, but read they might cause reliability issues and I want to try the stock handle first.

Any thought on the OS release? Arrendondo (sp?) better than Nordic?

I'm so stoked about 3gun next year, that I'm going to try and start our own club locally. I'll be searching for posts on how to go about that tonight.

[smokshwn]

I really appreciate you guys giving the newb the input here, but I gotta ask cause I have not clue again...

Why do I want the rib on the barrel?

The vent rib is generally much faster for the type of shooting we do. 95% of our shots involve pointing and shooting the gun quickly. The vent rib was made for exactly that. Very few require the use of a sighting system (rifle sights).

[el pres]

You can also get your Nordic comp. parts from

shootersconnection.com and they also have

the Mark Otto side saddle and forgrip 2pack.

These are a must if your shooting limited and

dont load from the belt!!

Great choice on the gun but dont mess with it yet

I would get the ext. tube and clamp and shoot it,

then start upgrading. If you put something on it

that effects its operation from the start you wont

know if you have a reliable gun or you messed it

up. I'm a firm believer in one aftermarket part at

a time with testing!!

[GregM4]

Took an M1S90 to Gunsite and a different M1S90 to Blackwater...both guns were very finicky and at Blackwater one of the 90s was thrown at the target in frustration by another class member...all the while our 2 SEAL instructors laughed (rightfully so) and mocked us because of our 'ninja guns'...they used stock 870s from the local walmart and demonstrated how to complete the stage.

Nevertheless I now have an M4, yet to be shot, and hope that the ARGO system will solve the ridiculous stoppages.

I can tell you this, if we experience jams, we will immediately ditch autoloaders and go to the 870, no questions asked, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

We don't dress in tiger stripes at the range...we're interested in working machinery, not machinery that needs to be tuned before being useful.

[ArturoJ]

I will trade you two 870s for those M1s90 junkers. I keeed! I keeed!

[waynewal]

Took an M1S90 to Gunsite and a different M1S90 to Blackwater...both guns were very finicky and at Blackwater one of the 90s was thrown at the target in frustration by another class member...all the while our 2 SEAL instructors laughed (rightfully so) and mocked us because of our 'ninja guns'...they used stock 870s from the local walmart and demonstrated how to complete the stage.

Nevertheless I now have an M4, yet to be shot, and hope that the ARGO system will solve the ridiculous stoppages.

I can tell you this, if we experience jams, we will immediately ditch autoloaders and go to the 870, no questions asked, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

We don't dress in tiger stripes at the range...we're interested in working machinery, not machinery that needs to be tuned before being useful.

after 20 years of my M1S90, (with a 12 year break in going to matches...) I'd sure like to know what stage or ammo gave you so much of a problem!

Wayne

[GregM4]

Took an M1S90 to Gunsite and a different M1S90 to Blackwater...both guns were very finicky and at Blackwater one of the 90s was thrown at the target in frustration by another class member...all the while our 2 SEAL instructors laughed (rightfully so) and mocked us because of our 'ninja guns'...they used stock 870s from the local walmart and demonstrated how to complete the stage.

Nevertheless I now have an M4, yet to be shot, and hope that the ARGO system will solve the ridiculous stoppages.

I can tell you this, if we experience jams, we will immediately ditch autoloaders and go to the 870, no questions asked, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

We don't dress in tiger stripes at the range...we're interested in working machinery, not machinery that needs to be tuned before being useful.

after 20 years of my M1S90, (with a 12 year break in going to matches...) I'd sure like to know what stage or ammo gave you so much of a problem!

Wayne

At Gunsite we had 2 or 3 M1S90s, mine being one of them...when my gun jammed over and over again with birdshot, Bill Jeans (then head instructor) took my gun, opened the chamber, and sprayed the heck out of it with some type of lube....it worked better but still didn't work consistently. So got rid of that one and bought another 90 for our Blackwater class, as did a friend of mine with whom I took the class. My 90 worked about 90% of the times, and his became so non-functional that he had to trade off with me. Our lead instructor tried his gun and it failed over/over/over...much laughter ensued...Walmart 870s costing less than $300 were outperforming the ferrari, and doing it routinely. When we got back he sent it to Benelli and they could not duplicate the failures.

I do not know Benny but based upon the universal endorsement here it sounds like he's the go-to guy for Benellis. But for a gun costing $1+ large, one should be able to logically expect that the following calculus would be the rule: pull trigger -> loud noise [not frustrated screaming of shooter, but rather report of rapid gunpowder combustion].

Edited August 3, 2008 by GregM4

[kurtm]

GregM4 obviously had the "tacticool" Benellis wiht the Pistol grip stock! The P.G. stock is the root of all evil when it comes to Benellis. It was an after thought by Benelli to even offer one, but all the "high Speed low drag guys" know the only way to have a shotgun is with a P.G. stock!! so Benelli, in a great marketing move provided one...although we can really blame H&K for the P.G. as they were the ones that pushed for it! And after all anyone who is anyone "knows" that H&K is "tacticool!"

Now I am no ex-Seal, or "Special Operator", but I have seen a shotgun class once so I will weigh in with "the guns that ALWAYS give the students THE MOST trouble durring a shotgun class is the good old 870! Finiky, sticky, shortstroking, jaming, part spitting bit#%!" Bring an 870 and bring bandades and spare parts!, but like I said, I have only seen a shotgun class once KurtM

[GregM4]

There's some cognitive dissonance here...the PG is the root of all evil...the United States Marines pick the PG as their weapon of choice in the M4.

Who is wrong?

[Larry White]

Other than heavy metal or he man divisions the only time I ever saw anyone win a match with a pump gun he was wearing boots, a hat and fuzzy chaps. Too bad you havent shot the m4 yet, talk about b.s. jams!! This forum is about competive shooting, not about what the corps did.I for one have earned the right to question the corps( God love em) on any number of decisons they have made. Didnt much care for the crack about tiger stripes at the range either. Forget the gunsite and blackwater bunch, go to some bigger 3 gun matches, watch and listen, learn some thing about gear that works. Hi Kurt!-------------Larry

[Merlin Orr]

Pistol grips are a definite minus in terms of reliability...

Pork barrel politics, Washington's typical good old boy "one hand washing the other" and political suction regarding military procurement of product is not something to base an argument on in regards to an items quality, reliability or suitability to preform its intended job.

[GregM4]

Don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. If you're troubled by the tiger stripe comment, no offense intended, wear what you like to the range.

I am however surprised at the lack of attention to the actual point of the post.

[kurtm]

AHHH...the M4 Benelli isn't the same system as the M1 or M2. M4 is a gas assisted recoil system and the main spring tube is MUCH thicker than the M1/M2...and the stock affixes on the tube...not to the tube and jamed against the receiver causing binds in the not so thick tube of the M1/M2. I love tiger stripes, even have an original pair left ( not made in the U.S.A.)...although only the jacket fits these days. I can't speak of Blackwater, but I can sure attest to the shotgun classes I saw at Orange Gunsite and almost all of the E tickets in these classes were garnered by the semi-auto crowd, and almost all shoot-offs were won with semis. Last I saw of Bill Jeans, Jack Furr, the two Mikes and few other of the shotgun range masters, they had H&K Benellis WITHOUT P.G.s...but that is only from memory and it , like the Tigers only partially work.

The point of your post was that Benellis are junk unless worked on first and only 870s are good.....the point of my post is that after teaching shotgun classes the world over for the last 10 years the 870 isn't the gun it is usually touted to be unless worked on constantly. Did I miss somethingt?

BTW I have yet to see an M4 do well in competition...but then again there aren't many of them around. KurtM

[Religious Shooter]

So in terms of reliability, does Mr. Weakhand say the M4 with a PG are OK?

[kurtm]

Yes the M4 is more reliable with a P.G. stock, it was designed with the P.G in mind, however I wouldn't look to one to be the next great 3-gun shotgun, expense, tubes and lack of ribbed barrels etc. will hinder the system. KurtM

[kellyn]

Kurt, Seal equals a cute aquatic mammal. SEAL equals U.S. Navy special warfare super elite very physcially fit but don't shoot too good operator type commando.

As for myself, I prefer no pistol grip.

[kurtm]

DOH!!! No wonder those guys beat me senseless for tossing them a nice red rubber ball, and then drank all my rum and coke!! they said Seals, not SEALS!! Funny not one of them knew their class number, and one told me it was classified

I love pistol grips....on pistols, not too hot on them for rifles and never have warmed up to them on shotguns, and I have NEVER believed in arming aquatic mammals! KurtM

[GregM4]

For what it's worth, the other 90s did have the PG as well so maybe that was a factor in their many troubles. I guess my point really is that a gun of that price should not need 'tuning' for it to shoot reliably. I passed on Benellis for a few years till the M4 came out and hopefully it will function like a shotgun should function, and we all know how that is.

One thing that I wonder about - the Colt M4 and its knockoffs is pretty popular in 3 guns, isn't it, PG and all?

Seems like a bit of a disconnect to me. Maybe it's me that's missing something here.

Greg

[kurtm]

I couldn't agree more! At that price it should be GOLDEN!! As should a "combat rifle" when fielded to troops engaged in combat, no matter what kind of powder/ammo is used, but anytime you change a system in mid stream you will end up with problems. Does that excuse Benelli....HELL NO!!! Does that excuse Colt?? see above!

Yes ARs are very popular in 3-gun, low recoil, easy to work on, accurate, mostly reliable (as good as most things)....BUT boy do they need to modified before being race ready in My opinion...so we are right back to your original post aren't we? AR-10s are real popular in Heavy Metal, but if you look at the top heavy metal guy you won't find any pistol grip on his rifle.

To each his own and if you like P.G.s grerat, BUT on the M1/M2 Benelli they are the worst thing ever!! which was the point of my post, that and 870 aren't that great a gun either! Kurt

[GregM4]

I will defer to you regarding what rifle configuration the 'top heavy metal guy' uses, because I don't even know what the 'heavy metal' part means...I suppose we're talking about a competitive shooting category, and that the weapons used are tuned and tricked.

Allow me a little ignorant forbearance though if you would, and help me to understand why:

(1) The M1014 shotgun that won the contract for the US Marines is a Benelli with a PG (clearly reliability was paramount to these folks);

(2) The current M4/AR15 configuration includes a PG; and

(3) The current CQCB weapon of choice, the MP5 in its various iterations, has a pistol grip.

I keep seeing pistol grip, pistol grip and pistol grip.

Conspiracy theories aside, why do you think the pistol grip is so popular with the various branches of our armed forces?

Edited August 4, 2008 by GregM4

[benny hill]

Pistol grip benelli's were set up to fire FULL power buck & slugs & will do so fine. IF you want to shoot field birdshot in them, change recoil springs made to run it & tweek the recoil spring tube & it will shoot what it was designed not to.

[kurtm]

GregM4...I have reread all of my posts and I have yet to find where I say pistol grips are bad...only that for Benelli M1/M2 the pistol grip is bad due to interfacing with the recoil spring tube and stock. I also note that I personaly don't like them but have stated if you do thats fine...at no time do I say they are in general bad!!

I would like to point out that you left out the M-9 pistol...it DOES have a pistol grip also! I would also like to point out the the MP-5 is passe and sooo 90s. Short ARs seem to be all the rage these days with the Green Machines as well as some of the FN stuff! for the short guns. The M-14 is also seeing quite a rebirth, and these don't have a pistol grip, nor does most of the crew served lanyard fired stuff, nor the things with wings or rotors and treads......so help me out here! Where did we get from "870 only good shotgun" to everything needs a P.G.???

B.T.B. an M2 Browning doen't have a pistol grip, nor the Dragon or Tow, or LAW rockets, or Grenades, does this also set a trend??

And just so we stay somewhat on track here...I must disagree with My good friend Benny...the P.G. M1 Super 90 WASN'T designed to fire only full power stuff...Thats all Benelli found that would run in this here abomination, so it became policy KurtM

[AikiDale]

I will defer to you regarding what rifle configuration the 'top heavy metal guy' uses, because I don't even know what the 'heavy metal' part means...I suppose we're talking about a competitive shooting category, and that the weapons used are tuned and tricked.

It varies from match to match but Heavy Metal generally refers to a division which requires a .44 or larger caliber pistol with iron sights, a .308 caliber or larger rifle with iron sights and a 12 gauge shotgun. Some matches require the shotgun to be manually operated rather than semi-automatic.

Not sure what you mean by tuned and tricked, but competitive shooters have found weapons not 100% reliable are likely to fail when you need them most, causing a lost match. Government agencies, limited to the lowest bidder, often can not afford competent gunsmiths to ensure reliability, but make up for it with acceptable risk, statistics and PR departments.

Edited August 4, 2008 by AikiDale

[GregM4]

kurtm, you're right of course...but to be clear, I don't think 870s = good/90s = bad...remember, I just bought an M4!

The reason for my comments about the pistol grip is because I've seen it come up so often here, in conjunction with the equivalent of 'if you want your 90 to work right, you know where to send it'.

Greg

[kurtm]

You will like the M4, but remember... oil it!

The thing to remember is that if your Super90 doesn't run...REPLACE the P.G.! not send! If you want a really nice Super90 that will run send it to BENNY/BEVIN Also Remember Super 90 IS NOT AN M4. An M4 is a totally different gun! Also remeber if Benny can't fix it he knows who to call.