Para ordnance P18 mods/suggestions and fixes

[Beretta Lover]

Despite the advice I have been given from just about anyone I could ask, I got the P18 9mm instead of the S--.

Money isnt everything, but it's something.

I got the gun Friday night, I ran 400 rds through it Saturday and 300 today.

Despite the double secret mega extractor, I had one FTE (extract at all) with Win ball 115 gr wally world ammo in the first 300 rds. I had one today with my reloads. The gun was cleaned after I brought it home and between sessions (so after the first 400 rds). Today I was running 115 gr fmj over 4.8gr universal.

The gun has had fewer feeding issues as the round count has increased, I keep guns pretty greasey during break in.

Extraction is very uniform at 5 oclock, the gun runs better with my elbows and wrists locked out, Im running a 12lb recoil spring (stock one yesterday).

The pistol is very accurate from the bench, the trigger is unbelievably bad.

The only real issue I have is on two of the three mags (hi caps) I own, the slide locks back after the last round, but just barely, so barely so that when I am practicing a slide lock reload the gun snaps shut before I can get the fresh mag seated.

I think (since one mag does not do this) that it is a follower (and maybe) a spring problem. The factory followers already have a groove being dug into them from where the rim of my 9mm cartridge digs into the follower(?).

I have ordered new followers and springs from Dawson. Any suggestions on the wek engagement of the slie stop with the slide after the mag runs dry?

Any suggestions on drop in trigger kits? I saw a C&S series 80 trigger kit that looked promising.

Thanks

Brian

[Joe4d]

I dont understand exactly what your asking, you sound a little new to the terminology, but that's ok we all start somewhere,

The failure to extract,, that usually means the brass stayed in the chamber, either the slide didnt come back or the slide came back and the extractor slipped over the rim leaving the brass behind. I think what you mean is failure to eject as in the extractor pulled the brass out of the chamber but the ejector didnt launch it out of the gun.. I also dont understand the extraction at 5 oclock either, ? gonna guess maybe you meant ejection at 5 oclock ? which is bad by the way....

any way that combined with the mag problems all point to the same source,

Not enough umpf, the slide isnt going back hard enough. which causes all the problems you mention, How far away does the brass land from your foot when firing standing ? should be hitting the ground about six feet away. sounds like it is just rolling out.

basically the gun will wear in and loosen up, install a 19lb mainspring it will help some, it will also help the trigger pull. I wouldnt reccommend going to a lighter recoil spring, as your failure to eject problems may end up moving to faiure to chamber. You also dont wanna change more than one thing at a time. I would buy a new ISMI factory strength for 9mm recoil spring. The new PARA I bought recently had what I felt was a flat weak spring.

On to your trigger, generally "Drop In" means drop into a gunsmith with 1911 parts, But I do know what your talking about with the Para series 80 style trigger, alot of the problem is the series 80 design. Alw competent pistol smith is very capable of getting a good trigger out of it. If you want to keep the firing pin safety don't buy parts, take it to a smith and pay for a trigger job. Let him decide which parts he likes to use. You can also convert to a Series 70 design. I'm interested in the C&S kit also but dont see how drop in parts can overcome the inherant flaws in the design, namely the extra weight and take up.

[Joe4d]

A quich check in my soft ware confirms my suspicion, your loads are too light. 4.8 Universal under a 115 only comes to 123 PF it might squeek by in a 5" gun but in a new 1911 style gun I'm surprised it cycled as well as it did. WWB is around 1.169 oal not sure what length your loading but I wouldnt change as your not having any feed problems. So for now pick up a 19lb Mainspring, 5.2 grs Universal should give you 132 PF and still be under max charge, I bet it runs like a top and cures all your problems

[Beretta Lover]

A quich check in my soft ware confirms my suspicion, your loads are too light. 4.8 Universal under a 115 only comes to 123 PF it might squeek by in a 5" gun but in a new 1911 style gun I'm surprised it cycled as well as it did. WWB is around 1.169 oal not sure what length your loading but I wouldnt change as your not having any feed problems. So for now pick up a 19lb Mainspring, 5.2 grs Universal should give you 132 PF and still be under max charge, I bet it runs like a top and cures all your problems

Nope I meant failure to extract, the dang fired brass sat in the barrel and the slide tried to cycle the next round, as in "this can never happen with a para ordnance alligator ectractor claw

The first 300 rds were win factory ammo, not really good ammo, but ammo that runs fine in any glock, XD,sig or beretta\

Anyway 10-4 on the light loads with the H universal powder, max in the loading manual is actually around 5.0 or 5.1, I will probably run around 5.0 for a little while

My greatest concern is that my slide stop does not engage very well, it locks back after the last round in a mag, but barely. When I go to seat the next magazine the slide snaps closed before I can ge the next mag in. I thik this is a follower problem

PS I do love the gun and I do think it is groovy. It is not nearly as good a match gun as my XD tactical

[Joe4d]

stick a mag in and rack the slide to the rear hard by hand, if the slide isnt firmly locked you have a follower or slidelock issue, if the slide is firmly locked its an ammo, slide resistance issue.

Well I'll be danged on the extract thing, failures to extract are pretty rare. is it possible the brass is being extracted but held by the extractor and then the brass is being rechambered ?

My source was RCBS Software reprinted from Speer #13, shows 5.3 as max,, but as you pointed out work up I think 5.0 or 5.1 would give a decent load.

As far as followers, do not order aftermarket followers, they dont work. Brownell's does carry factory. The best springs I have found are the Wolff +10%

[Beretta Lover]

stick a mag in and rack the slide to the rear hard by hand, if the slide isnt firmly locked you have a follower or slidelock issue, if the slide is firmly locked its an ammo, slide resistance issue.

Well I'll be danged on the extract thing, failures to extract are pretty rare. is it possible the brass is being extracted but held by the extractor and then the brass is being rechambered ?

My source was RCBS Software reprinted from Speer #13, shows 5.3 as max,, but as you pointed out work up I think 5.0 or 5.1 would give a decent load.

As far as followers, do not order aftermarket followers, they dont work. Brownell's does carry factory. The best springs I have found are the Wolff +10%

I got this pistol last Friday night, I have 1000 rds through it in four days

I polished the slide lock where it contacts the spring loaded rod that sticks put of the plunger tube , this seems to have helped with one of the magazines going to slide lock properly

I also replaced the hammer spring with a 16lb and have a 12lb recoil spring, the trigger is actually wearing in very nicely

However, the failures to extract are getting worse. The round fires, the slide leaves the round in the chamber (fired case) and attempts to load the next one. It does this 5 times in a hundred and at different places within the magazine. I checked the "hold" of my TJ super claw extractor and it holds a loaded round in the detached slide like my other 1911'a do (one is a 45 para)

I m running 5.0 gr of universal under a 115 gr fmj

My only guess is that the extractor tension is OK but the claw is not radiused properly, the hook looks like it makes shallow contact with the rim of the ammo.

I will probably send this to Scott at Springer Precision to do some reliability work.

Brian

[Joe4d]

Please dont... I think you have taken reasonable actions, contact Para Ordnance. Make them fix it. Taking new guns to third part smiths for "Reliability " issues only enables manufacturers to produce junk...

Answer this question, if it was a $100 DVD player that didnt work all the time and was less than a week old would you take it to an electronics repairman and pay to get it fixed ? Hell no you'd return it to the place you bought it and demand it get replaced or fixed. I fail to understand why us gunbuyers put up with bad QC and pay for reliablility packages and magazine tuning... "STop the Madness"

[dirtypool40]

contact Para Ordnance. Make them fix it. Taking new guns to third part smiths for "Reliability " issues only enables manufacturers to produce junk...

+1000 Para and others have gotten by for too long on shoddy QC / reliability.

[38superman]

Joe4D & Dirtypool40,

I am with you 1000%.

Just one problem.

I had serious accuracy issues with my P18 LDA out of the box.

I did send it back to Para for repair.

They claimed to have replaced the barrel, test fired it and sent it back to me "REPAIRED".

It was no better when I got it back than when I sent it.

In utter frustration, I sent it to my smith.

He put a Schuemann barrel and bushing in it, tweaked the timing, and it now shoots fine.

I don't like this any better than you.

However, there comes a point where you have to ask yourself, how many times do I want to pay the shipping to send it back to the factory when it is clearly an exercise in futility?

I just paid the price to fix it and chalked it up to a lesson in life.

I just won't make the same mistake twice.

Despite the advice I have been given from just about anyone I could ask, I got the P18 9mm instead of the S--.

Money isnt everything, but it's something.

No disrespect to Beretta Lover but .... told ya.

Tony

Edited October 31, 2007 by 38superman

[DougCarden]

Or you could send it to Jim Anglin of Sailors Custom Pistols who knows much more about the guns that most....He did a slick .45 Commander for me that goes bang every time....course he went through the whole gun too.....

That is who I would go to for LDA work, period.

Good luck,

DougC

[bountyhunter]

My only guess is that the extractor tension is OK but the claw is not radiused properly, the hook looks like it makes shallow contact with the rim of the ammo.

That's why the extractor can slip the rim.

Another issue: my Para's barrel looked like the grooves were cut with a chain saw and the chamber was machined with a post hole digger.

If you polish the throat it MAY help with the extraction problems (it did on my Para) by making the surface smoother and giving less drag against the extracted case.

[Beretta Lover]

My only guess is that the extractor tension is OK but the claw is not radiused properly, the hook looks like it makes shallow contact with the rim of the ammo.

That's why the extractor can slip the rim.

Another issue: my Para's barrel looked like the grooves were cut with a chain saw and the chamber was machined with a post hole digger.

If you polish the throat it MAY help with the extraction problems (it did on my Para) by making the surface smoother and giving less drag against the extracted case.

I will send it to Scott because when it comes back it will be right. His work on my XD was smoking

This is less about doing what's right, and 100% about getting my blaster running in short order

I agree that it is wrong that there is a cottage industry for mag tuning and gun repairs but it is what it is

I'm probably going to throw a Glock 17 in the safe so that when my XD breaks or my 1911s won't run I'll have something to play with

[shootin-blanks]

OK, here's my Para story:

In the spring of O6, in the quest for a new Hi-cap ESP gun to replace my HK M13's (too much to fix, parts are getting non-existent).. I bought a pair of P18's, one old style, one new style..(extractors)

I wanted a spare *power extractor to keep in the range bag, as my main gun would be the "new' model.. I sent an email requesting part # and price..

Here are my emails to para.

Dear Scott Noyes:

We acknowledge receipt of your e-mail and take this opportunity to thank you for having chosen Para-Ordnance products.

Para-Ordnance does install the new power extractor on existing Para pistols through our warranty station at a cost of US$99.00. You would have to send in your slide and barrel only to have this part installed:

P.O. Inc. (RACAC1026)

Att: Customer Service Department

1427 Allensville Road

Unit #2

Sevierville, TN

37876

When returning our product to the warranty station, we advise that the slide and barrel be shipped via UPS and insured for its full value. Enclose a brief note explaining what you would like done to the slide and barrel and include a name of a contact person with daytime telephone number. Also include either a cashiers cheque or money order. Your return address must be on the outside of the package as well as on the inside letter. If your return authorization number (e.g. “RACAC1026”), and return address are not on the outside of the package or if your return address has been covered up by a forwarding service or some other way, the package may be refused.

Please note, that Para-Ordnance does not sell the power extractor as a separate item at this time.

Trusting the above will meet with your satisfaction, we thank you for the opportunity to be of service and ask that you do not hesitate to contact our office if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

Caroline Crawford

Scott Noyes wrote:

I have two P18's, one older model with a standard size extra tor, one newer model with "power extractor". I would like to know the part # for the "power extractor", and where to purchase a spare.

thanks,

Scott Noyes

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Dear Scott Noyes:

the part is fairly new, and it does require qunsmithing to install, it is not a drop in part. At this time, Para-Ordnance is offering this service for people who have Para pistols that do not have the new power extractor installed. In the future we will be offering other gunsmiths to purchase the parts to retro fit the new power extractor such as Dawson Precision etc.

Sincerely,

Caroline Crawford

Scott Noyes wrote:

So, you're telling me that, I can not purchase a spare extractor for my late model P18 ?????????? If the gun fails at/or before a Match I'm SOL????? If that is the case, I can't for the life of me think, why I would want to ruin my old model P18, by paying you to install a part that is not available???? Seems to be some of the worst marketing I've ever heard.

Scott Noyes

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Dear Scott Noyes:

If you wish to purchase the power extractor, the cost is US$75.00 per unit. You would have to send in either a cashiers cheque or money order to our service center in Sevierville, TN below along with a note requesting the purchase of the part and they will send out the part to you.

Sincerely,

Caroline Crawford.

Scott Noyes wrote:

I have no interest in converting my old model, I was looking for a "spare" for my new model. I shoot competitively and carry spare parts for all my guns. If a gun can not be fixed at or before a match, I have no use for it. That is why I no longer shoot any of my six Heckler & Koch P7M8 or P7M13's competitively. I felt your product(s) would be a viable solution, however, I am starting to doubt my decision.

Scott

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UPDATE:

At approx, 12k rounds the *power extractor went SOUTH.... I called Para, and they told me to send them the gun in for repair... I asked, how about sending me a replacement spring for the power extractor, they agreed, but told me that probably would NOT fix it and I would then have to return pistol for repair.

The new spring did NOT fix the FTE problems...avoiding to send the gun in for repair, a local gunsmith 'sleeved' the slide to except normal, *ready-on-the-shelf, wear-out in 10-15k round, extractors....another 15K rounds have gone thru the gun, with NO FTE.....*but I have a couple of Ed Brown extractors in my range bag, and they were not 75 dollars each!!!

Sometime this summer, the little spanner nut on the left side of the rear-sight disappered... I called Para, wanting a replacement, after leaving messages for *3 days, I talked to someone, they told me the part was not for sale or replacement, BUT I could purchase a complete rear sight from Brownells....I choose to replace it with a Bo mar, rather than there Canadian/Chinese junk..

Scott

Edited November 3, 2007 by shootin-blanks

[JFD]

They replaced that little spanner nut for me without a problem.

I'm avoiding any new Paras until they get rid of that stupid power extractor.

I've been very happy with the Aftec extractor I put in my P16.

[bountyhunter]

UPDATE:

At approx, 12k rounds the *power extractor went SOUTH.... I called Para, and they told me to send them the gun in for repair... I asked, how about sending me a replacement spring for the power extractor, they agreed, but told me that probably would NOT fix it and I would then have to return pistol for repair.

The new spring did NOT fix the FTE problems...avoiding to send the gun in for repair, a local gunsmith 'sleeved' the slide to except normal, *ready-on-the-shelf, wear-out in 10-15k round, extractors....another 15K rounds have gone thru the gun, with NO FTE.....*but I have a couple of Ed Brown extractors in my range bag, and they were not 75 dollars each!!!

Sometime this summer, the little spanner nut on the left side of the rear-sight disappered... I called Para, wanting a replacement, after leaving messages for *3 days, I talked to someone, they told me the part was not for sale or replacement, BUT I could purchase a complete rear sight from Brownells....I choose to replace it with a Bo mar, rather than there Canadian/Chinese junk..

Scott

The "power extractor" is the definitive example of fixing something that ain't broke. A good quality (properly tuned) standard 1911 extractor will last at least 10k rounds.... I have some that have run WAY longer than that.

Edited November 6, 2007 by bountyhunter

[Joe4d]

Bounty hunty,, "Properly tuned" is the key. I think the recent, or recent in gun life anyway, move towards the Power extractor and Kimbers and a few others external extractors was an attempt to get away from the tune,, You or I can take an $18 Caspian extractor fit and adjust it and be good to go for 10K or so, But imagine a Corparation paying us to do that hand fitting and adjusting compared to paying a minimum wage or barely over minimum wage worker to just assemble parts. And then paying that person day in and day out. Many , I would dare say most autoloaders have a no fit no adjust extractor that works just fine when the proper spring is installed, With the popularity of 1911's many manufacturers saw this as an area to cut costs and increase profits, Now I am not excusing this I just think that's what happened, I think Kimber abandoned the project and based on feed back maybe Para should. I am sure there are many more people with no problem's than with problems and I own one myself but I would rather have a self service easy to replace extractor myself.

Original Poster, at least contact Para see if you can complain a new extractor out of them, then when yours is fixed by a smith get the second one fit as well, bag it and tag it and you'll probably be good for many many moons

[bountyhunter]

Bounty hunty,, "Properly tuned" is the key. I think the recent, or recent in gun life anyway, move towards the Power extractor and Kimbers and a few others external extractors was an attempt to get away from the tune,, You or I can take an $18 Caspian extractor fit and adjust it and be good to go for 10K or so, But imagine a Corparation paying us to do that hand fitting and adjusting compared to paying a minimum wage or barely over minimum wage worker to just assemble parts.

I don't disagree that cheap gun makers won't spend time fitting the guns right. Look at how the barrels are fitted in junk 1911s.

In reality, the reason most off-the-rack 1911 exctractors "lose their tune" is because the steel they are made from is too hard. The extractor is designed to act as a spring, and as such, should be made from springy steel not hardened steel. If the steel is more springy, the "push back' for given amount distance of deflection is less. In a nutshell, you can allow the extractor some "pre load" and the case deflects it the rest of the amount, initial position is not so critical.

Most crappy extractors steel are so hard you have to bend them with great precision to get the right tension because it is giving that tension with such a small distance of deflection. Also, hard steel "takes a set" which means it loses tension and you have to do it again. Bottom line, if the steel is so hard it generates full tension with a minute deflection, there is virtually zero system tolerance. But, there is no reason to do that.

If extractors are made from the right steel, they would be very easy to fit (one bend at a jig and you're done) and would hold tension over what is the life of most shooters use of the gun.

BTW, the Sprigfield XD is using a fixed extractor (with preload) very similar to the 1911 and they have had ZERO problems.

[bountyhunter]

I would dare say most autoloaders have a no fit no adjust extractor that works just fine when the proper spring is installed, With the popularity of 1911's many manufacturers saw this as an area to cut costs and increase profits, Now I am not excusing this I just think that's what happened, I think Kimber abandoned the project and based on feed back maybe Para should. I am sure there are many more people with no problem's than with problems and I own one myself but I would rather have a self service easy to replace extractor myself.

True. The original browning HP went away from a fixed extractor to a pivoting one for going cheaper in production. I prefer pivoting because they can be "moved" if you have an oversized reload case jam tight in the barrel. If you slip the extractor out of the way, the gun can be field stripped.

My only gripe with the Para try at an external extractor is that seem to have made it too complicated and not reliable enough. Extractors are not rocket science, it's kind of bizarre they can't get it right.

My other gripe is that Para makes some of the crappiest standard extractors on earth (the one in my 1640 was a cast piece of junk). hard cast steel for an extractor? Absolute idiocy.

[Beretta Lover]

FWIW here's an update on how the P18 is running

It has not been sent out to Scott at Springer yet, as he was getting ready for Area 2 and I have been working on the road this week, so I will send it to him tomorrow

The gun has 1200 rounds through it now, the trigger has actually improved considerbaly, so much so I dont think it needs a trigger job. I did drop a 16lb hammer spring in it though.

My slide stop problem is fixed. I replaced the factory mag springs with the extra power ones Dawson carries, I also polished the slide stop where it makes contact with the safety plunger tube detent in order to allow the slide stop to move more easily. every thing works regarding mags locking out properly. The Dawson followers do not work, but the factory ones do fine so the dawsons were not needed

I got my dawson front FO sight installed, The gun is very accurate and it feeds very reliably, no spacers in the mags,no super long bullets necessarily

The pistol still does not extract reliably (with any ammo or any springs), so off it goes to Scott for some extractor work (maybe an aftec if needed) and an ambi safety. alsoI am going ti run the EGW bolt on magwell with some arredondo bases.

The gun barely makes weight on my postal scale with the magwell and new mag installed

[todd bledsoe]

I bought a P18-9 last year about this time. I was on active duty and home on leave. I bought it because I could use it for Pin night and shoot a 1911 frame in minor. Any way I also had problems with extraction. I took the extractor out, cleaned it. I noticed it was very hard to put back together, so hard I lost the small pin that sits between the spring and extractor. Para sent me a new one. It was a ***** to put back together. (I was stateside at this time in the DC area and did not have access to my normal workbench, I lived in VA). It still did not work correctly. I contacted Para and sent it back. When I got it back it was worse and failed to feed. I fixed the fail to feed by bending back the mag lips to where they were before they touched them. However the gun still failed to extract. I put it aside until I was off active duty. Para did send me a new spring to put in it and it still did not extract all the time. I noticed the new springs did not have the tension my first one did. I even did all the tuning you do the a regular extractor to no avail.

THen one day I was talking to some of the folks I shoot IPSC with and was told to stick something in the hole before the spring. I did. It increased the tension and it has been running great since. In fact I have around three thousands rounds without any problems.

This gun is so much fun to shoot. What I put in it was a very small piece of clothes hanger wire. I had to cut three different lengths to get it running correctly. I am not bashing Para, as they kept telling me to send it in, however I paid a bunch for this gun and it costs me everything time I send it back to Para. I also have several other brands of 1911 with my own gunsmithing and all run flawlessly. (I did learn from a couple of gunsmiths). I

So long story short, try putting a pin or something in first then the rest of the part in the correct order. Maybe this will assist some of you in getting the guns running correctly. Good Luck.