Montana Gold Bullets Brass Jacket??

[Hagop]

I have been shooting Montana Gold Bullets for some time now....yet am concerned about a statement a fellow IPSC competitor made about the brass jacket on these bullets and their contribution to premature wear of the rifling in a barrel in comparison to copper jacketted bullets.

I really like the consistency of these bullets....not to mention the price.

But not at the price of prematurely wearing out my barrel and the cost of having another installed by a pistolsmith.

Would someone like to qualify this persons remarks on the premature wear part.

I thought brass was more harder than copper....but did not think that would ever contribute to premature wear of the rifling.

Anyone?

[EricW]

All jacketed bullets wear barrels faster than lead.  According to Montana Gold, the wear with brass is similar to copper.  Keep in mind that most throat erosion, I believe is primarily caused by the burning of the powder, which is independent of the jacketing material or lack therof.  The only real decision is between jacketed and non-jacketed.  

That said...Montana Gold makes first class stuff.  I love it and really enjoy doing business with them.

[2alpha]

You have to ask yourself, why do they use brass unstead of copper?  Because it's cheaper that's why.  If it worked better than copper you can bet the major ammo manuf would be using it.  Some have said that it takes a little more powder to make the same velocity with the MG bullets than copper jacket ones. If copper wears out rifling faster than lead then brass has to wear it out faster than copper.  Throat erosion is more of factor with rifles than pistols, we don't burn near as much powder in our pistols.

[gm iprod]

I have used MG, Zero and Sierra in many handguns.

My current NRA open gun, prefers Sierra, my wallet prefers Zero or MG. I have shot 30,000 (minor pf so wear is much lower than major pf) through my Lisner Match barrel in the last 3 and a bit years and the wear is well within tolerances. The brass that MG uses for its jackets is real soft anyway, the copper jacketing material used by most bullet manufacturer is NOT pure copper anyway. It is sometimes called gilding metal and is about 90-95% copper.

Norma use a lot of nickel over copper for their hunting projectiles and they say that there is not enough difference in wear rates for shooters to be concerned. I think the figures were less than 5% for any projectile travelling at 2500fps or more.

Powder errosion is of concern to pistol shooters, especially if you shoot major or above 30,000PSI. Slow burning powder like 540, 571, HS6, N340, N350, 3n37 and anything similar will cause a SMALL amount of errosion in the throat and should be watched and checked for adverse signs as far as accuracy is concerned.

If your barrel wears in a manner that you are unhappy with I would check the barrel first, then the projectiles.

[Hagop]

Gentlemen,

I can understand a bit of your explanations....but feel that 2alpha may be on to something.

Given the fact that brass is harder than copper and that you do need to dump about two tenths of a grain more behind a brass jacketted bullet.....wouldn't  you figure that the seal of the expanding gases are not as efficient as copper jacketted bullets contibuting to the flame thrower effect of expanding gases being blown by the bullet that is still transitioning down the bore?

Would that not contribute to throat errosion and then some?

We all know that lead seals the gases better than brass or copper jacketted bullets.....so lets ask ourselves why?

Could it possibly be the softness of the bullet aiding in sealing the expanding gases?

I think so.

So my question here is....should one worry about the wear a brass jacketted bullet may impart in its extensive use?

Or the wear difference between brass & copper jacketted bullets is so insignificant that one should not give it a second thought?

[shred]

Well, except that there are many many varieties of brass and copper alloys (nobody's using 100% copper for IPSC bullets), plus all sorts of heat-treatment, hardening and softening methods.  So, you can't just say "Brass is harder than copper...".  'Taint necessarily so.

Somebody'll have to poke some representative bullets with a brinnell tester before anybody can make relative hardness claims.

Besides, if a barrel wears out in say 50,000 rounds instead of 60,000, what difference does it make?  

Save $5/K and you've saved $250 for another barrel.. out of the $2000+ you've already spent on jacketed bullets.

Pick whatever you like and works for you and don't worry about it.

(Edited by shred at 11:05 pm on Dec. 7, 2002)

[Patrick Sweeney]

Shred put his finger on it.  If you're saving anything at all, you'll have saved enough to buy a new barrel when you eventually wear out the one that's in it.  And they will all wear out.

[ErikW]

What shred said. I've been using MGs for a couple years now. I even recently gave up on coated lead for practice, so I'm exclusively brass jacketed for the pistolas. My Open gun has used MG JHPs exclusively, save for a few of Nolan's copper jacket Zero loads.

They all shoot as straight as they ever did. The older Limited gun one requires a little more powder than the newer one, but I think it has to do with barrel production tolerances, not wear.

2alpha, no brass jackets in factory ammo? You think Remington uses real gold jackets in their Golden Sabers? (What do you think the B is for in BJHP?) I shot a case of Winchester USA 165gr with yellow bullets. I've seen yellow bullets in ammo from PMC.

[DBChaffin]

I'm in agreement with the above three posts.  That being said, I shoot Zeros which are a copper alloy jacket, but not because of any wear concerns.  (Anyone have a brinell tester?  I'll donate a few Zeros...)   If it bothers YOU, don't shoot them.  Lots of people do and if there is any wear difference it is most likely very small as mentioned above.  I would be surprised if there was a great difference.  More people would have noticed and be complaining about it if there was.  Just my $.02.  

[Carlos]

Yeah, the Winchester Range practice ammo we sell is brass, not copper.  Its the stuff you find at indoor ranges sold without a box- it comes that way in 1000 round lots from Winchester - there is only a 50 round styrefoam block to hold the ammo. We rent guns too - thousands upon thousands of these rounds go downrange each month - especially through the Glocks.  If barrel wear were a big concern, none of our rental guns would have rifleing left - they all shoot just fine though  - including 92s, 1911s, Sigs, S&Ws, etc. Brass is just fine.  Hardness tester is the only way to say for sure and it might change some minds about material hardness- incluiding mild steel used in bullet jackets.

[2alpha]

Erik, Remington uses brass in the golden sabers for expansion and jacket retention which proves they must think it's better for that purpose.  The other example is low buck ammo which still proves my point that if brass made a BETTER bullet thats what the manuf would be using in their good ammo.  

I don't know if the wear difference is enough to be concerned about or not I was just responding to Hagop's post.  I've shot a few mg's myself and except for some early problems with the nose of  the 9mm fmj caving in didn't have any problems.  I don't think everyone using them realize they are brass and there's no harm in discussing this. A lot of people thought the steel cased 45 ammo wouldn't cause a problem until they saw that they had breech face wear.

For myself I stick with Star or Zero.

[EricW]

My last input is that if brass jackets were a problem, we would know by now.  Worrying about the minutiae of barrel wear seems antithetical to the purpose of practical shooting.  Why not just pick something economical and reasonably accurate and be happy?

[Duane Thomas]

When you say "steel cased .45 ammo" are you referring to the Russian Wolf stuff, or the steel cased .45 circa WWII? The steel used in the Wolf casings seems so mild I'd be surprised if it caused any problems. Enquiring minds want to know.

[Hagop]

Eric,

Based on all that has been said so far we seem not to be able to come to a consensus on the wear difference between brass jacketted bullets and copper jacketted bullets.

I think we are in agreement as far as the arithmetic on the cost of shooting Montana Gold bullets is concerned versus the probable wear of shooting them.

Eric....you seem to be partial to Montana Gold bullets and seem to be satisfied with their performance.

That is why I am going to direct my next question to you or anyone else here that would like to answer it based on their personal experiences of shooting both copper jacketted bullets and the Montana Gold brass jacketted bullets.

This may be significant or to abstract in determining the wear difference between the two different typs of jacket materials.

And that is....the jacket residue that is left behind for you to clean.

We all know that most bore solvents out there claim to disolve copper jacket residue in the rifling.....I am assuming it will also work on brass jacketted residue left behind?

My personal impressions I have gotten is that a barrel shot with brass jacketted bullet is easier to get clean in comparison to copper jacketted bullet.

This may or may not shed some light on the wear part....but would very much like some input on a theory that may or may not help?

(Edited by Hagop at 10:16 pm on Dec. 9, 2002)

[EricW]

Hagop,

I am certainly not trying to advocate MG's over any other brand.  I just happen to be a happy customer.  Currently I'm using Speers for jacketed, but that's just because that's what my bullet guy stocks.  

I had the EXACT same question about cleaning the brass out of barrels.  So...I called the nice folks at MG.  According to them the cleaning procedure is exactly the same and you can use the same solvents and procedures.  If you worry about that king of thing...  

I have decided to worry less and subsequently have stopped cleaning my guns so often.  I have learned that worrying adversely affected my shooting much more than a "dirty" barrel, so I've made a point to do less of it now.  I'm constantly amazed by what I can do with a less than pristine gun when I'm actually relaxed.

[Carlos]

Duane - have not seen the USA manufactured WWII steel cases in years - though you could reload them several times w/o problem and they worked just fine despite the really old wives tales about them.  

As for the Russian Wolf - yes the .45 ACP cases are FULLY RELOADABLE boxer primed and no, the primer is not crimped in. This is not the case for all the cases they make - e.g. the 9mm is berdan. I posted the reloading forum about this approx 1 yr ago but the post seems to have dropped off (did a search).  Jist is that I found cracks in about 10% of the cases after 1 reload w/ spikey Clays powder in .45

Yes, the steal is mild and much softer than the nickle plate on the plated stuff that lotsa guys shoot - don't know why people are so afraid of mild steel yet will shoot nickle plated cases all day.  Breach face scoring? New one to me.  Where did that info come from? Would like to check it out. Thanks, D.

[ErikW]

Look at the steel-jacketed rifle rounds. Much higher velocity, much higher chamber pressure, much more slow-burning powder, much more heat in the barrel than pistols. There's a general murmuring that they will wear out your barrel quicker than copper jacketed rifle rounds. However, nobody's coming forward and saying, "I just shot out my barrel by using a case of S&B .223" or "I used to get 10K rounds from a barrel now I get only 7K."

I'll bet you'll wear out your pistol barrel more by cleaning it with a wire brush than by shooting brass jackets through it. You will wear it out by using a certain powder known to be abrasive.

Just because brass is on some cheap pistol ammo doesn't make it worse. Cheap S&B is copper jacketed and that doesn't make copper worse.

Hey does anybody remember Winchester Silvertips? An aluminum alloy jacket of some sort, or was it nickle? No better, no worse, just different.

[Carlos]

Erik wrote:

""I'll bet you'll wear out your pistol barrel more by cleaning it with a wire brush than by shooting brass jackets through it."

Well at least one guy out there agrees w/ you Erik: look at this website under barrel cleaning:

http://www.schuemann.com

This guy makes barrels for a living - in fact, he makes IPSC/USPSA and IDPA barrels for a living. Lots of barrels.  Are his barrels any good? Well, look at:

http://www.sviguns.com

These guys build guns. IPSC and IDPA guns. Lots of guns.  Are they any good? Dunno - you decide (I own 2 of their guns BTW). They seem to think that Will Schuemann knows a thing or two - - at least about barrels he makes.

I don't clean my barrels either Erik. Guesse there are at least 2 of us who agree. As for the rest of the world, decide for yourself; clean if you want to - won't bother me one bit if you do.

[L9X25]

Eric & Carlos

I'm proud to say that those two gentlemen are friends of mine and NOBODY makes a better or more accurate gun or barrel.  Wil is not satisfied with the status quo and is constantly looking for new ways to make his barrels better. First he came up with the Hybrid and lately the AET.  I have shot several of the AET barrels and can attest that they are incredibly accurate and very innovative.  I installed many barrels and used all of the whiz-bang barrels of the day from Bar-Sto, Kart, Schuemann, Briley and Nowlin and the Schuemann Ultimatch barrel in my new SV is the most accurate that I have tested.   I know that this might sound like a commercial but I am seriously a believer.  If you don't believe me ask BE.

Also, I am a believer in seldom cleaning my guns.  When Wil said not to worry about the barrel I was relieved (I never did anyway ;-)

Leo

[wiztech]

A local GM is sponsored by Montana Gold.  He told me that the owner of MG went to brass because he couldn't find a supplier of sheet copper material that would guarantee a consistency of material thickness within his specifications.  The brass supplier would.

[2alpha]

Hmm, I wonder about that, I've always heard that copper tubing is used to make bullets. I wonder where, hornandy, sierra, and the others get their copper?

[EricW]

2A,

The major manufacturers probably have enough volume to make their own jacketing material, whereas MG chose (probably wisely) to outsource it.  

E

[gm iprod]

The copper (Guilding Metal) that Sierra use for the Gameking and MatchKing is I believe sourced from Germany. The J4 material that is used by Nosler and a couple of others is made both in Germany and in the US. That stuff is so consistant from batch to batch that Nosler and others pay through the nose for it.

If you want to know about brass / copper alloy consistancy talk to the guys at Corbin, they make machines for making bullets.

Just remember what the RCBS stands for Rock Chucker Bullet Swage. Roy Huntington and freinds used to swage 224" bullets from old rimfire casings. Glad we don't have to do that anymore.

Copper Jackets are not pure copper and brass is made from a hell of a lot of copper, they are just alloyed differently. Who cares what you use. I use both types. My gun prefers the Zero or Sierra.

If wear is such a problem for you, Moly coat the bullets. Theory is that the friction between the barrel and projectile is significantly reduced. It certainly works for my .17Rem and my .22-284, both of which run at 4200 fps +.  

[ErikW]

One more thing...

When I first tried Montana Golds (98-99?) they were copper jacketed. A duller copper color than the bright and shiny Winchesters and what not, either a different alloy or simply not polished as much, I don't know.

So MG does not appear to have any religious preferences for or against brass-heavy or copper-heavy jacket alloys.

[Guest Brad Stahlberg]

I'm fortunate to live in Kalispell Mt., home of Mt Gold and to also be sponsored by them. I've exclusively shot their bullets for four years and have tried to keep track of the number of rounds fired through an SV pistol. I quit counting at approximately 40,000 rnds and have fired a considerable number more through the same gun. If excess wear were a factor I would think I would have had to increase my powder charge to make major, which I havn't had to do.