Grip Angle- Kinesiology Differences

[InTheBlack]

Has anyone given any deep thought to the differences in "feel" which result from the different grip angle of various handgun designs?

I've never read anything beyond a mention of how it will change your visual index, requiring cocking the wrist differently in order to line up the sights.

Having just started to get the feel of an HK USP compact, when my usual is a 1911 Commander, I have some observations.

The change in angle affects my weak hand grip. I use the 60/40 clamshell type sqeeze, and I've noticed that I can't get my weak palm "stuck" to the grip, and the recoil pops the frame out of my weak hand. This might improve if I put a Hogue rubber finger-grooved grip or sleeve on it, because that's what I have on all my other guns.

Felt recoil with two hands seems to be about the same- although of course it twists differently-- but when shooting one handed, the recoil is very much stronger than the 1911. Much more jump.

I wonder what grip angle engages the wrist/hand muscles at the strongest portion of their range of motion? This is not necessarily the optimum angle.

The severe "forward lock" of a freestyle pistol might seem to be the strongest position by definition (locked) but the overall optimum is a dynamic function; there is a range of motion required for not merely pointing, but for absorbing (by muscular extension/contraction) and then counteracting recoil by pushing/pulling the muzzle back into place.

Obviously exercising one grip angle by shooting will cause the muscles to get stronger at that particular point, and also will train the reflexes to counteract the recoil in a particular manner.

I would be possible to build a strength trainer along the lines of the Nautilus weight lifting machines which would give a non-continuous recoil impulse.

I noticed that the HK sights don't line up horizontally unless I "twist" my strong elbow downwards. This could become an automatic, learned muscle position; but the point is that this difference is far removed from my wrist.

[Patrick Sweeney]

A very interesting thought. To further muddle the picture, making analysis more difficult, is the height of the bore above the hand, the mass of the recoiling parts, and the angle (and thus timing) of the unlocking camming surfaces.

Were we to truly study the situaiton, we'd need a government grant to manufacture a dozen protype 1911 frames with differeing grip angles, then have a couple of dozen shooters of varying skill levels shoot them. If anyone manages to get grant approval on that, I'd be happy to volunteer my services as project manager.

[chrisva]

Black,

I've noticed the same thing over time also about grip angels.

I started off shooting a 1911 and have own a number of pistols from glocks to sigs and H&Ks. They all have different angels I think you really have to find one that works for you and stick with it.

I use to shoot idpa with a glock 17 and found that my npa (natural piont of aim) was way off putting shoots way high. The glock 19 is alittle better but still high.

I had to return to the 1911 its the only pistol that i can shoot the best.

The H&K is pretty close to the 1911 but the springfield xds are the closet that i've found yet.

[Ron Ankeny]

...and then there is the whole discussion about grip angles with the same pistol. What happens when you rotate your support hand forward until your fingers make a 45 degree angle to the ground when you open your hand? In theory, better recoil management. I worked on rotating the hand forwrd for two years, including strectching every morning before dry fire before abandoning the notion because it just plain hurts. How about Ron Avery's method? Mr. Avery actually bends one elbow slightly to readjust the point of aim in order to maintain his preferred grip and wrist angle. For instance, if a Glock points high for the shooter, that can be fixed by bending the elbow down. Good idea? Bad idea? Depends...?

[tightloop]

Just a dumb question, why would anyone want to use such a contorted stance/grip that they had to do anything that hurt or was not natural feeling?

[Rocket]

I find my NPA forces my front site just left of center. Has anyone ever experimented with building up a slightly asymetrical grip with grip tape or grinding a different axis into the grip itself. Right now I have learned to deal with it by cupping the back of my right wrist to keep the gun straight , but I still fight the left tendency especially when trying to draw quickly and index on targets.

[Ron Ankeny]

Tightloop:

Right on, not everything works for everyone. Canting the support wrist forward doesn't work for me. OTOH, many top flight shooters just kept canting the wrist more and more forward, then backed off to their comfort level, until they eventually came up with what worked for them. The Burner comes to mind and he even discusses that in one of his tapes.

Now that I think about it, what's natural about having something explode and belch fire in your hands, lol?

[InTheBlack]

Patrick-- we already have lots of guns to test, and Ransom rests in which to hold them consistently. Could start with a biomechanical engineering student to put acceleration measurement devices on the Ransom and get force curve data.

Then play with the Ransom so it is "sprung" in different ways that more or less simulate the wrist tendons, with some baseline muscular strength level.

I'm sure there is a lot of anatomical medical data WRT the dynamics of the wrist joint.

Rocket- I also tend to point the muzzle a bit left with any gun I pick up. I know a guy who builds up the side of his grips to fill his palm to help get the index he wants. I find the Hogue HandAll is good on those slab sided Glocks; it has a bulge on the side for your palm.

[Jim in WA]

InTheBlack,

I recall some scientific study on grip biomechanics done in the late 70's, relative to Olympic free pistol and rapid fire. Don't remember specific sources, but generally they involved relative steadiness and endurance. Most grip designs in this area value keeping the hand/wrist/arm in the most relaxed position, hence the slanted angle most orthopedic free and rapid fire pistol grips have. This is common in european weapons and seems to have carried over to the Glock. Rapid fire pistols usually have a grip drawing the wrist in a downward angle to help place the bore at the lowest possible point relative to the wrist.

As Patrick mentioned, much of your perceptions of the USP relate to the height of the bore axis relative to the hand and wrist. I believe the actual rearward opposing force is resisted in the bone structure of your arms, and upward torque must be dealt with by muscles, along with returning the gun on target. The mass of the gun, your hands, arms, and body also play a role in absorbing recoil and amount of movement. As B. Enos book points out the real idea isn't to control recoil, but to control sight return. I've been experimenting with using the common wrist roller (weight on a rope which is rolled up and down on a bar), holding it by the ends to keep the palms vertical like a shooting grip. This makes the exercise closer biomechanically to the motions of shooting.

[eric nielsen]

I've been fighting for 12 years with guns that point too low for me. It requires a very bent right elbow for me. This allows the gun to have really nice leverage over my right arm, result: lots of muzzle rise, lots of kick strait back towards my face. SLOW.

Yes I've tried not setting the strong-hand wrist, for me that's worse. Yes I can shift the weak hand around to straighten that arm, but if there's too much difference in arm position(s), the presentation to the target is just plain goofy. Not smooth at all.

On my Glock 35 I tried the Handall, didn't like the shifting, so I sliced off the front strap of the Hogue and lashed the rest of it back onto the Glock, using black Powerflex. Nice. I do love the palm swells. Some day with $$$$$ I want to make a prototype open gun that takes Glock mags.

Discovered by accident: the bigger the trigger guard, the higher the gun points, even strong-hand-only. An STI/SV points higher than a Para because of this. It may be why Robbie Leatham cuts off the trigger guard off every steel frame he has & welds on a bigger guard. Now, undercutting the triggerguard does the reverse, makes it point lower. Unfortunately, to fit small (female cop) hands, a lot of manufacturers like TZ undercut near the frame, right out of the box.

I've added material to the guard of my Caspian open gun, basically just gets it back to STI size. You can try wrapping your middle finger & see if you like that. Also added epoxy putty behind the mainspring housing. If I didn't have huge hands, that thing would be unshootable. My next open gun will be an SV with a Dawson Ice magwell: the stronger I grip that gun the higher it points & the better the control while shooting. Gonna put a tube sight on it instead of C-more, same reason.

Eric Nielsen

A-28026

[George D]

What JIM in WA says about the angle of Olympic pistol angles is correct. Pistols in the USA owe their grip angles to the 1911, which was designed as a combat pistol, whereas European pistols are more oriented to precision matches. I believe that the Italian maker Pardini have produced a 45 combat style pistol from the drawing board up which incorporates a more slanted grip angle than a 1911. But the S&W M945 has a grip angle less slanted than the 1911.

For single handed precision matches the slanted grip workes for me, but I like the M945 angle for action matches. Horses for courses and personal preference. Fortunately we have a wide range from which to choose.

[2alpha]

Caspian28r, If a glock points low for you then you do have a problem! Most of us raised on 1911's find the Glock points high. Have you tried different beavertail styles? How does a revolver point for you? I guess I'm lucky, I find everything points pretty well for me except for Glocks, Lugers, Ruger 22's, or anything else with the slanted grip. As far as the strongest angle for your wrist it seems to me to be when your wrist is centered, if I bend my wrist in any direction I have less gripping strength.

[benos]

Someone needs to design a centerfire pistol that doesn't have the magazine in the grip. (Like a .22 caliber Pardini.) It might be a bit unwieldy, but for an Open gun, who cares.

[eric nielsen]

Brian nailed it with one shot. As usual.

[2alpha]

Thanks Brian, now I didn't get my answers, Hey That sounds like a cool idea, since 9x19 is now legal I got a real nice Tec9 with a aimpoint I'll sell ya. you can put any grip angle you want on that puppy!!

[Jim in WA]

My Walther GSP-c starts in the right direction, but I'm not sure I could get major out of .32 S&W Long flush wadcutters. Anyone got ideas for magazines beyond 5 rnds.?

Seriously, it is an interesting thought as Walther, Sako, Pardini, and Benelli have all made int'l centerfire weapons with the magazine in front of the trigger guard. Total freedom of grip angle and shape, great adjustable triggers, extremely low bore axis, and low reciprocating mass(fast) bolt recoil system. Unfortunately all are straight blowback. Maybe incorporate the armalite-style gas system? hmmm....

[2alpha]

All kidding aside, the mag in front of the trigger guard thing has been kicked around quite a bit for open. It just doesn't seem to have enough advantages to be worth it. Imagine a 170 mm mag hanging out in front of the trigger guard and you'll see what I mean. Holster design would be interesting to say the least. But you could get a really low bore line and any grip angle, size, and trigger reach you needed. Although reloads are rarer in Open I wonder about that too.

[George D]

As 2alpha suggests, the holster and reload speed would be the major difficulties.

[InTheBlack]

Funny, it seems that my last input didn't get thru...so I'll repeat myself:

In the Oct 2002 _Shooting Times_ an article on the Polymer Revolution says about the S&W Sigma:

"S&S did research into how the human hand and arm actually operates when grasping and firing a handgun. This involved wiring six different hand/arm muscle groups of various shooters into a medical sensor array and recording the actual interplay among the groups when the shooters fired various pistol designs. Computer analyses of the data allowed S&W engineers to determine the key elements of grip design- web angle, angle of grasp, trigger reach -and to generate a grip shape and size that would allw a "non-conflicting" grasp by the user at rest and when firing. It is interesting that the resultant Sigma grip angle- determined to be the most naturally "pointable" after this extensive research -is 18 degrees. The grip angle John Browning gave his classic Government Model 1911 on the basic of what "felt right" to him was 17.5 degrees. Go figure."

Ron- the FistFire system is based on full rotation of the weak wrist.

[MattBurkett]

Well S&W is wrong. Their calculation must be incorrect! Coming up with a different angle than John Browning, YEAH RIGHT! They obviously weren't using good shooters and what is 6 guys, a control group? I think not!

Blasphemy!

hehehe

[gm iprod]

If the six shooters were some or all of the following, TGO, BE, Todd Jarrett, Doug Keonig, Jerry Miculek, The Burner, John Pride, Mickey Fowler, David Tubb and apologies to those left out, I would take notice.

Until then I'm with Matt B.

For single shot precision the European guns are hard to beat. For standing still and shooting ISU rapid fire ditto. For pulling a handgun from a holster, running around and shooting at multiple targets and / or making some sort or reasonable power factor I am going to stick with Para, S_I, Colt clones, CZ clones etc etc etc. No disrespect to the other type handguns, we are talking open here.