K-dot , Leupold CQ/T or EOTech with a magnifier

[Alaskapopo]

Nothing beats iron up close! NOTHING.

Now lets not get ridiculous. Iron's are good, but I prefer golf clubs. They have a little more range.

Seriously, this depends on what you define as up close. Inside 15 yds., I agree. Over 15 and the dots start to show an edge.

Erik

I agree. I did some basic drills with my rifle testing it with Irons, an Eotech, Burris Fast fire and with a 1.25-4 power Accupoint. I shot at 15 yards 25 yards, 50 yards and at 100 yards. At 15 yards I found the dots and the irons to be equal in speed with the accupoint to be slightly slower for me.

At 25 yards the dots started to get a tad faster at 50 it was much more noticiable at 100 the Irons were outof the equation. The scope was slower until 100 then it started to tie with the dots.

The drills were simple three IDPA targets at each range spaced 3 feet apart. I started in low ready and fired two rounds into each target. I did the drill 10 times with each optic on the same rifle. All the optics were in Larue mounts so they could be taken on and off without 0 loss.

Pat

[kurtm]

You guys need to spend more time with your irons! The top iron sight shooters many times beat the entire field in "tactical" from roasting targets with the muzzel flash to the 300 yard long range stuff. Up close...out to 50 yards NOTHING beats iron. N.B.N. I haven't seen a dot beat iron yet, as long as the iron guy knows how to shoot.

( N.B.N. ) No battery needed!

KURTM

[Ms. Kitty]

You guys need to spend more time with your irons! The top iron sight shooters many times beat the entire field in "tactical" from roasting targets with the muzzel flash to the 300 yard long range stuff. Up close...out to 50 yards NOTHING beats iron. N.B.N. I haven't seen a dot beat iron yet, as long as the iron guy knows how to shoot.

( N.B.N. ) No battery needed!

KURTM

We're not worth to look upon the iron sights of the Miller rifle,

jc

[M ammo]

Leopold 1.5-4 mark 2 I like other scopes but will have to save up.

The Leopold works well, not sexy but it gets the job done.

So that is what I’m shooting now.

I’m not getting any younger, and Irons are like small print to me.

[apriav]

IOR VALDADA , great glass and easy to use ranging reticle.

I can't add more.

[Alaskapopo]

You guys need to spend more time with your irons! The top iron sight shooters many times beat the entire field in "tactical" from roasting targets with the muzzel flash to the 300 yard long range stuff. Up close...out to 50 yards NOTHING beats iron. N.B.N. I haven't seen a dot beat iron yet, as long as the iron guy knows how to shoot.

( N.B.N. ) No battery needed!

KURTM

Sorry but I have to disagree. Irons are slower. You have to keep track of the front sight, target and rear sight with irons. With a dot its all ont he same focal plane. I am relatively new to USPSA but I have been involved with shooting rifles for quite a while as a LEO and as a firearms instructor. The guys with optics always run faster than the guys with just Irons. Their is a reason why optics are taking over the Military and LEO world. Irons are obsolete except as a back up sight. In the three gun mathces I have been too I have never seen two people of equal skill and have the Iron sight guy win. Does not happen.

If irons were really better guys in open class would not use dot sights on their pistols.

Pat

Edited December 23, 2007 by Alaskapopo

[kurtm]

Yep optics are taking over, no doubt about it! Why, because they are sooo easy to teach!, and for the "uninitiated" MUCH easier to use. To all these points I will agree! I also have been shooting rifles for a while and though I only do a "bit" of L.E. training, I have shot iron for years. Now for your average officer/soldier who doesn't really have a desire to shoot alot, nor loves to compete, I agree with what you have said....but once a person gets used to irons ( although I disagree about your premiss of what needs to be paid attention to) they can do amazing things! I do know that the art of shooting iron is going away and for most they will never get to see someone shoot iron well, but don't under rate them! As I stated NOTHING beats iron up close! KURTM

[MedicineMan]

I thought Meopta K-dot was a great scope but it just didn't seem to work well for on anything past 200 yards, I replaced

it with an IOR 1.5-8X CQB with holdover calibrated in in yards. Just love it.

[Big Bore]

N.B.N. I like that.

I agree with Kurt Nothing beats Irons up close. All it takes is practice and they point damn fast.

I draw alot of pleasure beating the local guys who have the latest whiz bang optic with iron sights, makes my day.

[kellyn]

I'm with Kurt on this one. Theoretically, dots and optics should slightly faster up close but they're not. Look at the results of any short range stage at a major 3 gun match and you'll see iron sight times equal to or faster than optic times. Hose-mesiter supremo Taran Butler has even mentioned that irons are faster up close.

As for the original question, I'd put the KDot up first for general 3 gunning although I don't think it's better than a Leupold 1.5-5X MR/T. The EoTech w/ tripler is certainly cool and great for up close shooting but the tripler is not as effective a sight for medium to long range targets as a regular scope.

[Religious Shooter]

Taran usually uses a 1.25-4X. How about a true 1X vs. irons? With headshots and partials?

You give a bunch of guys the same amount of bullets and time with both systems and I bet ya 90% of the time the run with optics (@1X) is going to be faster.

That extra .25X or .5X above 1 power can make a lot of difference.

Those iron sight guys who are beating optic shooters are just more skilled (via practice and maybe raw talent) than the other shooters.

...and never say never.

2006 USPSA 3Gun Nationals

Stage 7: Sands of Kandahar

Tank stage. Pretty much all partial targets @ 4-25 yards. Some horizontal big A-zones.

1 Bruce P. 116 U Limited 170 10 26.02 6.1491 180.0000 100.00%

2 Ted P. 136 M Limited 176 4 32.35 5.3168 155.6364 86.46%

3 Darrell H. 26 A Limited 173 12 32.49 4.9554 145.0573 80.59%

Shooters who beat top Limited shooter:

1 Chris T. 42 GM Open 174 6 20.12 8.3499 180.0000 100.00%

2 Michael V. 90 GM Open 178 2 21.30 8.2629 178.1245 98.96%

3 Jerry M. 109 GM Open 176 4 21.77 7.9008 170.3187 94.62%

4 Matt B. 122 GM Open 179 1 22.68 7.8483 169.1869 93.99%

5 Tony H. 49 M Open 176 4 23.83 7.2178 155.5952 86.44%

6 Jerry B. 36 A Open 172 8 23.22 7.0629 152.2560 84.59%

7 Ronald Walter F. 19 M Open 180 0 26.49 6.7950 146.4808 81.38%

8 Robert J. 151 A Open 178 2 27.12 6.4897 139.8994 77.72%

9 Don B. 111 GM Open 177 3 27.06 6.4302 138.6167 77.01%

10 JoJo V. 125 GM Open 165 20 22.67 6.3961 137.8817 76.60%

11 Jake K. 108 GM Open 173 7 26.12 6.3553 137.0021 76.11%

1 Taran B. 112 GM Tactical 176 4 20.47 8.4025 180.0000 100.00%

2 Daniel H. 79 A Tactical 176 4 22.60 7.6106 163.0358 90.58%

3 Vance S. 46 M Tactical 170 8 23.32 6.9468 148.8157 82.68%

4 Mark H. 158 GM Tactical 180 0 26.53 6.7848 145.3453 80.75%

5 Chuck [mp] A. 34 M Tactical 177 3 26.14 6.6565 142.5968 79.22%

6 Barry D. 164 A Tactical 174 6 26.01 6.4591 138.3681 76.87%

7 Carl C. 15 M Tactical 174 6 26.32 6.3830 136.7379 75.97%

8 Bennie C. 24 M Tactical 174 6 26.36 6.3733 136.5301 75.85%

2005 USPSA 3Gun Nationals

Stage 9: Burning Down the House

House stage. A lot of full targets.

1 Kelly Neal 35 M Limited 173 7 21.90 7.5799 180.0000 100.00%

2 Bennie Cooley 224 M Limited 170 8 21.97 7.3737 175.1034 97.28%

3 Robert Woods 213 M Limited 169 9 21.86 7.3193 173.8115 96.56%

4 Bruce Piatt 118 U Limited 174 6 23.04 7.2917 173.1561 96.20%

5 Ted Puente 227 M Limited 176 4 23.62 7.2820 172.9258 96.07%

6 Craig Underdown 159 B Limited 166 12 21.30 7.2300 171.6909 95.38%

7 Jeff Gross 23 B Limited 177 3 27.65 6.2929 149.4376 83.02%

8 John Bagakis 216 C Limited 165 13 24.93 6.0971 144.7879 80.44%

9 Mark Richman 144 M Limited 166 14 25.29 6.0103 142.7267 79.29%

10 Jeffrey Yerger 233 B Limited 173 7 27.74 5.9841 142.1045 78.95%

Shooters who beat top Limited shooter:

1 Michael Voigt 220 GM Open 171 9 19.87 8.1530 180.0000 100.00%

2 Matt Burkett 210 GM Open 172 6 20.64 8.0426 177.5626 98.65%

3 Jerry Miculek 156 GM Open 175 5 21.45 7.9254 174.9751 97.21%

4 Don Bednorz 119 GM Open 175 5 22.19 7.6611 169.1399 93.97%

5 Jerry Bonura 221 A Open 165 13 20.69 7.3465 162.1943 90.11%

6 Chris Endersby 193 M Open 172 8 22.82 7.1867 158.6663 88.15%

7 Larry LeBeau 105 A Open 160 14 21.03 6.9425 153.2749 85.15%

8 Ronald Walter Filho 232 M Open 165 15 21.65 6.9284 152.9636 84.98%

9 Brian Williamson 127 M Open 175 5 24.65 6.8966 152.2615 84.59%

10 Tony Holmes 112 M Open 168 12 22.73 6.8632 151.5241 84.18%

1 Taran Butler 31 GM Tactical 177 3 20.27 8.5841 180.0000 100.00%

2 Ray Witham 215 M Tactical 174 6 20.79 8.0808 169.4463 94.14%

3 Chris Perez 228 M Tactical 169 9 20.59 7.7708 162.9459 90.53%

4 Benny Hill 78 M Tactical 175 5 22.13 7.6819 161.0818 89.49%

5 Erik Lund 204 GM Tactical 168 12 20.53 7.5986 159.3350 88.52%

6 Tim Milkovich 267 M Tactical 164 16 20.37 7.2656 152.3524 84.64%

7 William Paolino 44 M Tactical 174 6 23.14 7.2602 152.2391 84.58%

8 Mark Hanish 266 GM Tactical 176 4 23.78 7.2330 151.6688 84.26%

9 David Olhasso 146 GM Tactical 180 0 25.07 7.1799 150.5553 83.64%

10 Jack Boyd 2 B Tactical 172 6 23.61 7.0309 147.4309 81.91%

Edited December 25, 2007 by Religious Shooter

[kurtm]

Gordon, I could also finsd MANY examples of when Iron ruled, but it is Christmas eve....so Merry Chrismas! KURTM

[Merlin Orr]

I would like to see how often an iron sighted shooter beats the optical guys in a hoser stage... Excluding Kurt Miller from the results. Kurt is kinda like the "Thurty Point Buck" I have heard sung about or the abominable snowman .. a truly amazing anomaly and not often seen.....

[Bear1142]

As I stated NOTHING beats iron up close! KURTM

You'll have to pardon Kurt's lack of self-awareness. He still has not realized that he is the exception and not the rule.

Erik

[kurtm]

Now I disagree, A am very self aware...aware enough to know if you take me out of the mix, you have to take Robbie Johnson, Ted Puente, Kelly Neal, and Bruce Piatt, as well as Tom Carpenter, Daniel Ernest, Pat Kelley out as well. Now you can start seeing about the argument! Now I am not saying that scopes aren't great! I use one regularly for shooting Prairie Dogs, but I haven't used a scope for big game or matches since 2001....come to think of it I have only used a scope for two Antelope and one Deer. The rest have been with iron on eighter an M1A or a 45-90 86 Winchester. We can debate this all day, but the people posting that dot,s and bots, are faster, don't understand or shoot irons, and have never seen them shot well, but thats okay....if you say anthing long enough you will believe it! KurtM

[M ammo]

Kurt You are the man.

You have a great argument. But you kind of plugged a hole in your argument at the same time.

You and the guys you list are not mere mortals like the rest of us.

I tried the Dot. Years ago. 50 yards or less. It rules.

But at real rifle range. A Dot just didn’t work for me.

I guess that makes me a Scope-Bot

Jim M ammo

[patrickbeijer]

To just go a little on/off topic

I have tried the K dot and thats a wonderfull scope for the money

I use a Zeiss varipoint now (1.1-4) and that scope is expensive but worth all the money and i will never in my life sell it.

I have looked at the Leupold but i think its worthless for ipsc ,in clear daylight you just will not see any illumination of the reticle and that will slow you down at close targets (just my opinion)

Eo tech ? i have one ...its nice but the lens always looks misty I will trust my nice clear aimpoint anytime over the Eotech

have not tried the magnifier yet.

I also have a TA11 and use it with a flip cover closed at the front for close targets(prec.mach.tool comp) and you can do wonderfull things with that clear scope.(downside....the donut is rather big for large distance targets,i think)

I do think you can shoot just as well and fast irons as optics,but i just do not have the time to put in the effort,it just takes alot of practice

[SgtNice]

For those of you with an IOR, is the reticle as bright as the Meopta? The Meopta works well as a red dot on 1x even in very bright daylight. I recently paid a bunch for a US Optics SN-4 and you can't see the illumination with only moderate sun.

[Religious Shooter]

I have the old IOR CQT. It's not bright enough to be red during day light. I believe the newer version isn't either.