Stand Alone Revolver Nationals Poll

[hopalong]

I voted NO.

ICORE is doing FINE and doesn't need any help (aside from getting it out of Kalibanornia)

And.....

There is enough of a difference between them that I personally would not want to shell out much $$$$ to then have to switch back to back.

A USPSA Revolver only match in the WINTER at a range in the SOUTH or the West would be the better choice if you want to draw a bunch of folks who dabble in revolvers when they aren't shooting their autoloaders. Oh and you would want at least 12 stages if not more so everyone would get the most BANG for their BUCKS.

Hop

[slflr]

I voted NO.

ICORE is doing FINE and doesn't need any help (aside from getting it out of Kalibanornia)

And.....

There is enough of a difference between them that I personally would not want to shell out much $$$$ to then have to switch back to back.

A USPSA Revolver only match in the WINTER at a range in the SOUTH or the West would be the better choice if you want to draw a bunch of folks who dabble in revolvers when they aren't shooting their autoloaders. Oh and you would want at least 12 stages if not more so everyone would get the most BANG for their BUCKS.

Hop

Sam,

I agree.

Bob

[Carmoney]

Dan, are you going to put up with all this bigotry directed at your state?????

[cliffwalsh]

After the election get settled (or if??), we need to talk to the prez about a revo only match but we need someone to step up and run it.

Any takers???

[Waltermitty]

I voted No, although I don't think smoking is involved. I just don't see two majors of different organizations running back to back as a doable proposition.

I know USPSA has tried it in the past with different divisions at Barry, the impression I gathered wasn't very complimentary of the format.

Do it in the Winter someplace warm?

[Barrettone]

After the election get settled (or if??), we need to talk to the prez about a revo only match but we need someone to step up and run it.

Any takers???

Hi Cliff,

That is kinda part of the reason I brought it up. I HAVE TO produce a Level III match every two years to keep my tournament director credentials (its an NROI policy). Anyway, I just did Targetig Education this year as one of those world shoot qualifiers and I am not doing that match again next year, as it has run its course. I don't have to do anything next year, but the year after (2009) I will. Sooooooo, I was thinking what a nice idea it would be to produce a stand-alone nationals. I think I can call in enough favors from some of my nationals staff friends to help me out with the project. I just thought that MAYBE we might want to run it in conjunction with another revolver-freindly venue. It appears by the poll that most everyone WANTS a stand-alone venue, but about 35% don't think having it in conjunction with an ICORE event is a good idea due to their having to "shift focus" between the two events.

All:

If I did this, I would want to do my best to keep match costs down and make it a great experience for the shooters. I think S&W would probably support our effort to some degree, but I would need to investigate that further. If it were me doing it, I would solicit all the help I could off this forum for stage designs and any other helpful hints that might make the match a success. I also agree that we need to wait until after the elections to see who is comprising the BoD so we know that what we present can reasonably be approved. I already am planning on attending the 1st quarter BoD meeting next year (January/February) for some other stuff, and would gladly make the pitch. My biggest concern comes from staff mobilization and incentives as it is usually the BIGGEST cost for a major.

You have to cover their double-occupency hotel, some travel (usually $300 ea), and a small per idem of around $15. That means that each range officer would cost around $500 for a 3 day venue. Now, you can just get high quality CRO's (to maintain consistency) for each stage and fill the RO slots with local people to help keep things down. But for it to be just a 12 stage match, you are already at $6000 for just your CRO's and that is ASSUMING you can muster 24 RO's locally to go with them that don't cost you anymore than a lunch. Then there is the advance team and tear-down team. That is usually 2-4 guys at another $500 apiece on each end of the match. So you have roughly $3000 invested in them. So bare-bones, you are still looking at around $10,000 just for staff (not to mention the Stats person, Quarter Master, Chronograph Staff, Staff Services, Shooter Services, etc...). Now, if you have a pre-match so staff can shoot it too, the costs of poker just went up, as you need to house them all for an additional day, and that is if you make them shoot all 12 stages in a day (and then work their a$$e$ off for the next 3 days).

Now, there is also a range rental fee, that is usually around $3000-$5000 to tie up a facility for a week. Then you have to feed your staff at the range and provide hydration at a cost of about $1500 for that time. You also have to buy some props, as no range has it all. You try to have as many people from surrounding clubs chip in some props, but that is not as easy as it sounds. Say you do it on a shoe-string budget of $2000. And trust me, that is shoe-string for 12 stages. Now, you need a $1,000,000 match insurance policy which is about $1500 for the event. Don't forget mission counts, scoresheets, shirts (if you even do them), targets, and of course...porta-johns. Now, I've just listed nearly $20,000 in expenses, and there isn't even a prize table, a shooter banquet, or any of the other bells and whistles that go along with it. These are real numbers people. I've been there, done that, got the T-shirt AND the trophy. So, you see why staff mobilization and range fee need to be split??? This thing could easily be $25,000 to produce.

I just want you to understand the real costs involved here. So we need 100 shooters MINIMUM at $250 a pop (for only 12 stages) to make it happen. We simply can't muster that IMHO on our own, so splitting costs and doing it in a "revolver-freindly environment" is crucial. That is why I suggested piggy-backing it, as it is the only way I think we can be assured that it won't be a total flop. We need to give the shooters VALUE. If they can travel to one location and just pay a couple of extra nights of hotel and shoot two major venues, I think they will come. Cost is one of the biggest variables in keeping people from travelling to nationals. We need to make it more affordable, not less affordable. If we did it together with something else, I think we could trim the match fee down to $175 for 12 stages, and people would attend (counting on 100 PAID participatants). Stand alone (not in conjuction with another venue), it needs at least 150 competitors (and maybe as high as 200) at that price to absorb the costs. We simply can't muster that kind of support IMO.

Now, I can get "Billy Joe the Local RO" to run all you guys, but I am sure you want the fairest and best officiating available for our national championship, so you guys have to decide what you want, as staff costs could be trimmed to as low as $3000, but I don't think you'll like the results come match day. I know this is a lot of information to process, but these numbers don't lie. They are hard-costs that need to be paid. I can hold a 12 stage national championship at my home club tommorrow, but everyone would go away complaining because it didn't have the luster of what we have come to expect at our nationals. I hope you now have a better understanding of where all the money goes when we do a nationals. Now, after I have thrown all these figures at you, I want your feedback.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Barrettone

[Pin Shooter]

make it a week long venue. USPSA shoots on monday, tuesday, 1/2 wednesday then awards ceremony. At the end of wednesday NRA-D1 are put up and RO's shoot on Thursday, no need for walk trus and competitors could run the RO's to make things go faster. Friday, saturday and sunday are normal IRC dates.

Nice thing about this would be a bigger draw of competiters and for those of use who do like to shoot autos, would get to shoot them a the other nationals

This man is a genius............

[Carmoney]

I hope you now have a better understanding of where all the money goes when we do a nationals. Now, after I have thrown all these figures at you, I want your feedback.

I think it would be perfectly viable to run it like a good two-day section/area match over some weekend. Use Summer Blast as the model. Or the Single Stack Classic. Then you're not spending all that money on staff/rent/etc., and the shooters don't have to miss a whole week of work to shoot the sumbitch.

You want luster? The real luster would be to have somebody put lots of effort into obtaining a really nice prize table. Which shouldn't be too terribly difficult, considering that person could tell the sponsors they are sponsoring The USPSA Revolver National Championship. I have to believe S&W would participate in a major way, they just added another member to their Revolver Team (Annette Aysen), and sponsored Revo Division at a USPSA Area match for the first time (A5).

Maybe they could even have Jerry put on a stunt shooting demonstration, sponsor a plate rack side event, whatever.....

[Pin Shooter]

I never new that Smith was auditioning.....did you?

Edited August 28, 2007 by Pin Shooter

[Barrettone]

I think it would be perfectly viable to run it like a good two-day section/area match over some weekend. Use Summer Blast as the model. Or the Single Stack Classic. Then you're not spending all that money on staff/rent/etc., and the shooters don't have to miss a whole week of work to shoot the sumbitch.

Mike, what you are talking about is all fine and good, but using the Summer Blast as a model is a joke IMO. They have over 300 (read: THATS THREE-HUNDRED) competitors for that event. You find me 300 revolver shooters to sign-up for this thing, and I'd do it in a heartbeat!!! We could charge $75 just like Larry did and maybe even up it to $100 and have a little gingerbread added to the mix. Reality dictates that you need the SHOOTERS to deliver that kind of product.

Just my .02

[Carmoney]

Jeff, you and I had this conversation off the record in a different context, but I do not believe it would be necessary to spend anywhere near the money you're talking about to put on a great 2 day USPSA Revolver Nationals for 80 or 100 shooters (which is what you would probably get the first year). If it grows into something bigger and better in the subsequent years, then great.

Maybe I'm just hopelessly naive about all this, but I don't think you need to give hundreds of dollars to every one of the RO staff and advance/tear-down teams. I don't think it would cost thousands of dollards to rent a suitable range, plus thousands more the buy additional props, and I don't think it would take $1,500 to feed the staff and provide hydration.

$10,000+ for staff plus $20,000+ in expenses for a weekend event??? Judas frickin' Priest, Jeff.......

Somebody please tell me USPSA doesn't piss money away like that.

[Barrettone]

Jeff, you and I had this conversation off the record in a different context, but I do not believe it would be necessary to spend anywhere near the money you're talking about to put on a great 2 day USPSA Revolver Nationals for 80 or 100 shooters (which is what you would probably get the first year). If it grows into something bigger and better in the subsequent years, then great.

Maybe I'm just hopelessly naive about all this, but I don't think you need to give hundreds of dollars to every one of the RO staff and advance/tear-down teams. I don't think it would cost thousands of dollards to rent a suitable range, plus thousands more the buy additional props, and I don't think it would take $1,500 to feed the staff and provide hydration.

$10,000+ for staff plus $20,000+ in expenses for a weekend event??? Judas frickin' Priest, Jeff.......

Somebody please tell me USPSA doesn't piss money away like that.

Sorry to be the person to burst your bubble Mike, but all you need to do is read the staffing incentives letter for Nationals here: http://www.nroi.org/nationals/downloads/MG...%20Benefits.pdf

This policy has been in place for all nationals for at least the last 5 years.

This is what it takes to get anybody but "Billy Joe the RO". You may think it is a lot, but put this in context. You are asking a guy to take time off work to come work for free. All you are doing is getting them there, giving them a place to sleep and something to eat. Nothing fancy. They buy their own dinners, and all other "incidentals" in the trip are at their cost. How can you expect to get any kind of help without at least giving them that??? Nationals staffers won't come unless you at least give them the MINIMUM that they are accoustomed to getting. As for the range, go to your local club and tell them you need the whole range for a week (couple of days to set-up, a day for a staff shoot (maybe), two competitor days, and a day to tear down. See what they say. They are gonna want some decent compensation to tell their members that they can't shoot that week because you have the ranges (remember the people who voted them on the BoD for the club?). Lastly, go look at the past couple of years nationals budgets, and you'll see that I'm not BS'ing you. The costs are way more than I am quoting you in my post above!!! I am being CONSERVATIVE.

Mike my friend, I hate to say it, but you are a little naive on this subject. Please go check it out for yourself, and then we need to talk. I don't like this reality any more than you do, but that is what it is...REALITY. You can't run a national championship without decent staff. They can make you or break you. That is how stages get rebuilt after tornadoes blow them down, and mother nature throws a wrench into the plans. That is why they are the "best of the best". Anything else, and you would be VERY DISSAPOINTED in the match. Not just because of rules applications, but because the match simply won't flow. Larry gets a lot of Nationals Staff for Summer Blast, and that is because he recognizes their importance. His staff budget is around $10,000 (they only provide hotel, match fee, breakfast and lunch but they import a few more people). I have talked to him about it. It ain't cheap. I've had to do many match budgets, and it is never pretty. There are a myriad of things that you don't think of until its too late sometimes. Porta Johns cost $500-$1000 alone. Would you like to just hand out a roll of TP to each competitor at registration and point to the woods too? Wall sections, the amount of target stands, shooting sticks, targets, and all the other "incidentals" aren't cheap either.

I don't have a good answer except to team up with another venue. As for Judas Priest...HE ROCKS!!!!

Edited August 27, 2007 by Barrettone

[hopalong]

Jeff,

Let's chat about it at Circleville.

Hop

[Barrettone]

Jeff,

Let's chat about it at Circleville.

Hop

Sounds good Hop...I'll buy ya a burger at the food tent.

Edited to add: Read my post above, and it is coming off a bit stronger than intended. All due respect to Mike...He is one of the good guys!!! This is just meant to be a civil debate, not tear each other down. I apologize if the tone seemed too harsh.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Barrettone

[Gary Stevens]

I don't think I would factor in the Single Stack Classic/Nationals into this topic. The SSC/SSN is probably being expanded to include 300 shooters in 2008 over 3 days and maybe another expansion in 2009 if everything stays as they are now. The new President will decide what format the Single Stack division will take in 2008. In other words will it remain joined with the SSC or will it be rolled into a regular Nationals format as a regular division.

Gary

[Carmoney]

This is just meant to be a civil debate, not tear each other down. I apologize if the tone seemed too harsh.

Same here.....always enjoy a spirited debate between friends!

Mike (still innocent and naive as a newborn kitten....)

[coldchar]

I shoot and belong to both USPSA single stack and ICORE (both badly but I can blame it on my age). The reason for this is that the rules are not so different that I have to make a major mental shift. Like the Single Stack, pulling the two organizations together would only help both.

I shoot ICORE with a 6 banger and am not alone. For USPSA I would have to either beef up the loads or shoot minor. That is the only decision to make. The equipment would stay the same.

[Shawn Knight]

Hey look!!! I dredged up an old thread!!!

I want to shoot lots of revolver!!!

Edited May 1, 2009 by Shawn Knight

[AultGM]

It's a great idea ....... but I must be smokin' crack just thinking about it.

[uscbigdawg]

I don't the California hate, but having a back to back USPSA/ICORE Revo Nat's would be cool.

Rich