EricW Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Hey Pat, I just run the meth lab man. I leave the tactics to the crackheads working security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pdoyle Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Hey Pat,I just run the meth lab man. I leave the tactics to the crackheads working security. how true that is.... pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 One of the training aids we use now is to show a couple of video clips of IPSC shooters in action. I recall one SWAT team member watching a clip of a guy running a stage and at one point knocks down five round plates stagered down the bay in probably less than two seconds. The SWAT guy said "he just took out an entire entry team with head shots"....yeah, something like that! All (well most) kidding aside, here's the lessons I took away from my VERY limited experiences with Sims, both as a kaydet, bad guy, and "instructor" . Somebody mentioned it above, please remember that you were brought in as a training aid, a barely thinking / moving target. Holster your ego, follow the script and let them work how they are trained to. If the "moderator" knows your skill level, he'll likely want you to shake things up on demand, but remember it's supposed to be training FOR THEM, not a moving shoot house for you. Plenty of the advantages lie with the bad guy / ambusher / initiator. When I was the "good guy" I felt like I was waiting for it to be ok, and the bad guy was choosing when. Traditionally it's like a 3:1 advantage for the defender, and somebody lying in wait, has a big head start. That's why these guys have stacks, $50k in gear, $100k in training and pyro-technics. As has been mentioned ad nauseum, shooting is only one part of it. That being said, and despite what you read in this month's tactical doctrine, speed IS a tactic. Accurate shots on target are what everything else is trying to produce. And as mentioned in another thread, any shooter "B" and up is likely to shoot as well as your garden variety local "SWATTER". "A" and up they'll likely think you are cheating. Some super-d-duper GM like Robbie or Todd, well.... I have this vision of a Jedi moving through a frozen sequence. Yes, some of the high end teams have guys on the upper end of things, they are the exception. not the rule. We know them and they are freaks / gun nuts to the SWAT LEO crowd just like we are. (PDoyle Springs to mind. Like a frickin' shark with laser beams... or a GM Tank. Can we get him a shark with frickin' laser beam avitar? Please, I mean throw me a bone here...) Anyway, have fun, but play the part of the target..... wear thick sweat shirts or a vest if you have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Wear a cup. Cops have a sick sense of humor . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 and since they'll have 'em, if you can get some of those hard backed gloves I'd wear 'em. Head, hands, and juevos tend to get shot the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 The SWAT guy said "he just took out an entire entry team with head shots"....yeah, something like that! I can definitely see where its useful to understand what a person truly skilled in gun handling can do, but... How often does a SWAT team encounter a GM guarding the meth lab?? I'm thinking that I'll have to somehow stay clear of the rather large windows that run the whole length of the bus and make them come inside. There are two doors on the bus, but I can shut down the middle one mechanicaly from the inside, not sure about the front door. If this is not a scripted scenario, and they let you "freestyle" at some point, cut out their eyes - cover up the windows... Take away as much intel as possible. You still won't know when they decide to enter, but it puts you on more even footing.... Otherwise, do the job you were brought to do, and follow what they need you to do... Can we get him a shark with frickin' laser beam avitar? Please, I mean throw me a bone here...) How about a Hot Pocket...?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 How about a Hot Pocket...?? they're breath-taking, really. ok, back to topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folsoml Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 and since they'll have 'em, if you can get some of those hard backed gloves I'd wear 'em. Head, hands, and juevos tend to get shot the most. Knuckles are the worst. Everything else you can pad sufficently. If you get gloves thick enough to provide protection, you generally can't get your finger in the trigger guard. When you add in the fact that people shoot what they look at (ie: the gun), your knuckles take a beating. Like many others said: Anyone can take out an entire entry team if they are willing to die to do so. Most people are not, so act like most people would. Otherwise, it is useless as training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Wear a cup.Cops have a sick sense of humor . This is coming from the guy who wants us to start a stage at the Tri-Gun this year by chasing down and pummeling a target with a tomahawk before you can even pick up a gun. I've been on the receiving end (bumps and bruises) of sims and many force on force scenarios with my cop friends, including the K-9. (I think my niece is still traumatized from seeing me get attacked by the sweet doggy she had just been playing with at a public demonstration.) Wear the cup! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 You will know you are playing your part well if you demand a helicopter and pilot for your escape and one actually arrives . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 I invision stealing a hostages clothes and dressing him up like the terrorist and then planting myself in the middle of about 5 of them....who are bound of course. They also better hope I don't see them on their infiltration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 (edited) You will know you are playing your part well if you demand a helicopter and pilot for your escape and one actually arrives . Rob, look. Can't you see Jake has enough ideas rolling around in his head already??? He alreayd told me he's going to have death metal blaring like some Duke Nuke'em sound track. Say, between Pat and Jake we should have answer to this one: Q - Are open gunners actually immune to Flash bangs? A - the ones who shoot 9x25 with "plugs only" might just be. Edited July 27, 2007 by dirtypool40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 One more thing, when you play the "bad" guy...shoot for their legs barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightkrawler00 Posted July 27, 2007 Author Share Posted July 27, 2007 Why the legs? If I'm supposed to play a part, then that's what I will do. If I'm left to my own imagination, it's going to get very strange . I've got batting gloves for my hands. I can run the gun with either hand, and they will protect against a round getting under the skin. I work on cars for a living and my hands take a beating everyday, so I'm hoping that will counter the light weight gloves. A spare set of socks for, well, you know, will be with me. I'll also be wearing a vest. I asked, nobody said no, and if I were really hijacking a bus I'd be wearing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Imagine your reduced ability to effective engage a target if the lower part of your tib/fib is jello. Say hi to David for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Jake We'd all know it was you if you had on that green thingy swim suit.....even in a crowd... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folsoml Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Why the legs? If I'm supposed to play a part, then that's what I will do. If I'm left to my own imagination, it's going to get very strange . They will be wearing SWAT gear that will protect (for the most part) their entire upper body. Any shots there will not even be felt by them. Shots to their legs are the only places where YOU can get any justice . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightkrawler00 Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 I don't want to be mean to them my first time out. I want to get invited back for another play date . After all, this is a USPSA shooters dream to go up against an entry team and see whose skills win out. I know that I'll be overwhelmed by manpower, but we'll see how many I can take with me. Oh yeah. Does anybody think it would be a bad idea to use the fire extinguisher as they come in the door? Will I have to personally clean all of their gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pdoyle Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 negative on the open gun information, however, I had a very nice conversation with the gentlemen from ZM weapons about the use of a open gun, with X200 under it with 170 - 200mm mags for use on entry. Ultra high velocity ammo, controllable, fast, lots of bullets, would be fierce to try for shield work or HR if needed to impart your will on demand. Alan Zitta (studman) was all in for this idea. I have never been a fan of the MP 5 family for use in LEO, just me I guess, but they are fun, but fun dont get the work done all the time. Flashbangs or Light, Sound Distraction Devices (PC) are used to default all of the sensories of the body. You will see it and it will constrict your pupils, even if you close your eyes, and if you look away even better for us. You will hear it, auditory exclusion can go only so far, you will feel the "pop" of air. You will smell and taste the "funk" everything in your body is trying to avoid confrontation, but there have been several people that can fight through it. Thats when you encorporate, tazers, pepperball, bean bags and police service dogs. Now that is tough to beat. As an instructor and shooter, I can not tell you guys how much stuff from this forum I have plopped in my classes, with due credit. All the pros and others. i have used Dirtypools drill sheets for improvement, Military guys fell in LOVE with Wesselmans grips, Flex's info on how to make a gun run, rifle stuff from Benny hill, all you guys receive credit for all you do to help us out. your impact for LEO is not often seen outright but it is there in plain sight. thanks a million guys and gals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightkrawler00 Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) Well, I'm back. Had a great time, got shot a lot, but I got to shoot back. Fired 13 rounds, had 11 hits on target. There were five scenarios played out, I was a shooter in the first and last. First scenario had me as a single hostage taker. It was a shots fired entry, I fired a couple of rounds and the team came on in. Those were my only two misses, if you can call them that. Two rounds on two guys out the window as they came up the side of the bus. Then two rounds on the first two guys in the bus. Took a few rounds to the shoulder and one to the leg. If it was real, flashbangs would have been going off and I probably wouldn't have had the chance to take the shots out the window. Last scenario had four hostage takers. Entry initiated by the team as there were injured hostages. I "shot" the first hostage in the front stairwell and he dropped in their way, this was preplanned by the hostage and I. I put two rounds in the first guy I saw, then three on the first guy coming up the stairs. That guy put three rounds into my left arm from a little too close and that hurt enough that I dropped the gun and sat down. Check out the pictures. I was amazed at how well I saw the sights in the first scenario, crisp and clear just like they should have been. I also had a failure to fire and had the gun tapped and racked before I really thought about it. I used cover effectively and kept my head about me the whole time. Who say's that IPSC and USPSA create bad habits that will kill you in a gunfight? I'm calling B.S. on that one. Edited July 28, 2007 by knightkrawler00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightkrawler00 Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 (edited) Well, I can't get the pictures to come up. I'll keep working on it. I finally got a red x. What's the easiest way to get a picture up on here? Edited July 28, 2007 by knightkrawler00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pdoyle Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 Glad you had an awesome time..If your ever in NM...give me a call, we could shoot you up too..hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 your impact for LEO is not often seen outright but it is there in plain sight. thanks a million guys and gals. +1 Most people have no idea how much competitive shooters have crafted the modern technique taught by most law enforcement agencies. I just came back from instructors school and they gave credit where credit is due when going over the methods and techniques and where they originated from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 I was amazed at how well I saw the sights in the first scenario, crisp and clear just like they should have been. I also had a failure to fire and had the gun tapped and racked before I really thought about it. I used cover effectively and kept my head about me the whole time. Who say's that IPSC and USPSA create bad habits that will kill you in a gunfight? I'm calling B.S. on that one. Dude, didn't you hear? That's the new bona fide: "I can't shoot...... therefore, I'm tactical". It's amazing how actual shooters so often get no credit for being able to do it under pressure. sounds like you had fun, and they got good training out of you. Say do pasters help those arm bruises? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I invision stealing a hostages clothes and dressing him up like the terrorist and then planting myself in the middle of about 5 of them....who are bound of course. They also better hope I don't see them on their infiltration. Amen! I was going to suggest this if no one else did. SWAT breaches, shoots the guy dressed as a HT (with an empty gun), SWAT relaxes then advances to check the body, then real HT shoots SWAT members in the back. Wouldn't be funny if this happened in the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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