taxlawmax Posted June 17, 2007 Share Posted June 17, 2007 Hey all. I'm looking to buy a semi-auto shotgun for self-defense. I'd like to compete with it too, although my primary goal wouldn't be to win, it would just be to retain proficiency with my house gun. What do you suggest for a reliable gun that's good with defensive shot loads & fast to use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 I am not a big fan of semi-auto for defense. Got get a pump gun like a Remington 870 set up for defense or a Mossberg 590. Either will set you back about $300. There is too much to go wrong with a semi-auto and they cost considerably more. As long as you have a mag tube that holds 8 rounds you can compete with it at least at your level. I know several folks that can drive a pump just as fast as a semi-auto...maybe faster. Compete with that and when you decide you have to have a race shotgun for competition then buy/build one special purpose just for that. Just like I would never think of using my race pistol for home defense I would never dream of using my race shotgun for home defense. I have a Mossberg pump for that purpose. Why? In a word "lawyers". Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubbicatt Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 I am not a big fan of semi-auto for defense. Got get a pump gun like a Remington 870 set up for defense or a Mossberg 590. Either will set you back about $300. There is too much to go wrong with a semi-auto and they cost considerably more. As long as you have a mag tube that holds 8 rounds you can compete with it at least at your level.I know several folks that can drive a pump just as fast as a semi-auto...maybe faster. Compete with that and when you decide you have to have a race shotgun for competition then buy/build one special purpose just for that. Just like I would never think of using my race pistol for home defense I would never dream of using my race shotgun for home defense. I have a Mossberg pump for that purpose. Why? In a word "lawyers". Hope that helps. The lawyers won't let you use your race gun for self defense? Or is it that the lawyers are to blame somehow for your racegun? What is it you have against lawyers anyways? I love scapegoating. It is the same as coming home, finding your water bill is through the roof. You look around the house, and see that the sink is running, but you cannot stop it. But because the sink is too hard to repair, in your rage you remove the toilet. Darn that toilet anyways! So now you relieve yourself in the sink, and your water bill is just as high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxlawmax Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 Lawyers aside (I'm one), I think I am a big fan of a semi-auto shotgun for defense: unless there's something I'm missing here (always quite possible) and semi-auto shotguns are WAY less reliable than, say, semi-auto pistols (once you get to know what ammo your particular gun likes, etc.), then I don't see why the traditional pump-action is so much better. Think about it this way: would you consider using a pump-action pistol for concealed carry? No? Probably because that would be unnecessarily slow, right? Then why doesn't the same reasoning apply to shotguns for home defense? And I don't buy that the sound of pumping a Mossberg has a unique psychological effect on intruders. I've racked a few semi-autos, and the sound of that makes it pretty obvious what's going on. Seriously, though, please correct me if there's something I'm missing, or just chime in if you'd like to suggest a model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Race guns tend to have light triggers and other modifications that some lawyers can try and use against you. This can become a liability issue should you ever have to use it. Mas Ayoob and other have written extensively about this. It is a matter of personal choice...I choose to not use a race gun for home defense or carry. Pump shotguns are very simple to operate. If you are in a time of high stress you want something that is pretty much point and shoot without having to worry about things like carrier releases and so on. Again, it is a matter of personal choice. I choose to use a pump. Semi-Auto shotguns, out of the box, do tend to be more finicky about ammo. Those big plastic cases can become deformed far more easily than metallic pistol ammo. My 1100 has several thousand rounds through it and it still is picky about what ammo it will digest. Loves Federal, Winchester and Fiocci, hates Remington unless it has just been cleaned. I don't know why. Pumps are using your arm power to cycle the action. They are immune to shoft shouldering, weak ammo, etc. A gas gun will puke if you get a soft load (it even happens with factory ammo). A inertia gun (Benelli) will puke if you soft shoulder it. A misfire clearance drill on a pump is simply jacking the action again just as if you had fired the round. With an auto you need to find the bolt handle and rack the action. MUCH slower than just working the pump action again. If you really want a semi-auto for home defense then I would look at something like an 11-87 with a short (18-20") barrel. Put a mag tube extension on it. Go put 200 or more rounds through it to break it in. Then run at least 50 rounds of whatever you are planning to use for defense ammo through it so you KNOW it is going to work. Ammo selection is another matter of personal choice. I use #4 buck and have several slugs in a side saddle. We have been known to have bear wander through town (although it has been a few years) and a slug is good bear medicine. Whatever you use, replacing your mag springs frequently is a must (assuming you leave the mag tube charged). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Pump shotguns are very simple to operate. If you are in a time of high stress you want something that is pretty much point and shoot without having to worry about things like carrier releases and so on. Again, it is a matter of personal choice. I choose to use a pump. Agree w/ above. Another consideration: cost. $199 at one time would buy you a basic version of a Remington 870 from Walmart (those days might be long gone) But the 870 is a FANTASTIC gun that I personally have used to kill everything from deer to Canada geese to bunny rabbits (you get the idea) as well as serving in 3gun "He-Man/Heavy Metal" division. A semi generally requires AT LEAST $500 and more likely 750 to 1000 (depending on brand). Shoot the 870 for a while - then decide if you really want that semi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 NON-SENSE!!! In EVERY shotgun class I have given ( and that number isn't small by any means ) anywhere in the world, the most jamming, breaking, and short stroking, guns that give the most trouble ACROSS THE BOARD are PUMPS!! This may have been true 50 years ago, but today Semis are MUCH more reliable than pumps. Under stress, across the board, everyone short strokes a time or two. Jams in a pump action requier AT LEAST twice the time to clear as an Auto and sometimes much more. Pumps really SUCK when it comes to shooting in any position other than standing. As to being finiky about ammo, if you are using it for defensive purposes you should have made sure the stuff you are using runs the gun! Any where I have been in the world, I have been able to find ammo that will run in any auto loader! it may take a bit of looking, but it is there! This is just old non-sense that people dredge up as "lore" that is simply NOT TRUE!! No matter what kind it is makie sure you know how to run it, run it with the ammo it likes, stick a light on it and throw it under the bed, and it sure can be an auto loader! Kurt M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardschennberg Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 (edited) Start with a Remington 870 Express turkey gun. The 21" barrel is the main feature you want. The extended extra-full turkey choke is a neat freebee, but you should put it away and get a 12 gauge Express Upgrade Kit. It includes the Improved Cylinder choke you should use for home defense and most tactical shotgun matches, a Full choke you can use with bird-shot for distant targets, a small bottle of Rem Oil, and a crank choke tube wrench. Have the gun fitted with a +4 (8 total) extended magazine tube and clamp, and you are good to go. Edited June 18, 2007 by richardschennberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted June 18, 2007 Share Posted June 18, 2007 Gotta back my man Kurt here, I have had both pumps and autos set up for the house and have seen many used in training classes here and there, under stress pumps always got short stroked, never had that prob with my faithful Benelli, also weak shoulder or one handed operations is about a cluster with a pump, as well as those awkward positions you may find yourself in, yep they cost a little more but whats your piece of mind and safety worth? I'm not planning to take the low bidder with me into a fight, used Benelli $650- 700 probably already has mag tube, go play competition as well, find exactly what it likes and doesn't and sleep sound, ol' faithful is waiting jc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxlawmax Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Thanks everyone for the suggestions. As far as price goes, I'm willing to pony up if it makes a significant difference in terms of function; after all, this is primarily a home defense gun. But I won't pay for lore, fads, or advertising. Kimel: Two things. First, I personally place no stock in Masaad Ayoob. My impression is that he exaggerates quite a bit (especially when it comes to legal issues), although I haven't looked into the matter enough to feel 100% confident in my assessment. Second, you wrote: "If you are in a time of high stress you want something that is pretty much point and shoot..." That's what I don't get: if pointing and shooting is what you want, then why would you choose a pump-action (which can't) over a semi-auto (which can)? Again, although I have next to zero experience with shotguns, I've always had a sneaking suspicion that the pump-action shotgun's important place in American history has blinded people to some obvious operational advantages of semi-autos. GRANTED: like everything else you rely on for safey, you need to learn how to use it and learn the conditions under which the device will have trouble -- and finding the right ammo is the first step in that investigation. But if a semi-auto shotgun can be set up so that it functions reliably, I don't see how the pump-action wins in any column besides price. Edited June 19, 2007 by taxlawmax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout454 Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Get a Benelli M2 with a 21" barrel and use it for everything - especially in the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
festus1 Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Taxlawman, I took LFI II with Massad Ayoob. Shotgun shooting under stress is part of the class so I took my faithfull 870 hunting gun that I've put a lots of rounds thru over many many years. A lot of others had tactical pumps. The person who did not short stroke like most of the rest of us when going under the timer was the lady with an M1 20 guage. A semi auto. I'd shot that 870 a lot but never for time (stress). Now I use an M2 semi auto for everything and have not had a failure to fire or jam yet. I like the analogy between a glock and a pump glock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 NON-SENSE!!! In EVERY shotgun class I have given ( and that number isn't small by any means ) anywhere in the world, the most jamming, breaking, and short stroking, guns that give the most trouble ACROSS THE BOARD are PUMPS!! This may have been true 50 years ago, but today Semis are MUCH more reliable than pumps. Under stress, across the board, everyone short strokes a time or two. Jams in a pump action requier AT LEAST twice the time to clear as an Auto and sometimes much more. Pumps really SUCK when it comes to shooting in any position other than standing. As to being finiky about ammo, if you are using it for defensive purposes you should have made sure the stuff you are using runs the gun! Any where I have been in the world, I have been able to find ammo that will run in any auto loader! it may take a bit of looking, but it is there! This is just old non-sense that people dredge up as "lore" that is simply NOT TRUE!! No matter what kind it is makie sure you know how to run it, run it with the ammo it likes, stick a light on it and throw it under the bed, and it sure can be an auto loader! Kurt M +2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Hey all.I'm looking to buy a semi-auto shotgun for self-defense. I'd like to compete with it too, although my primary goal wouldn't be to win, it would just be to retain proficiency with my house gun. What do you suggest for a reliable gun that's good with defensive shot loads & fast to use? Most reliable so far for me - Benelli M1. I wouldn't discount the Remy 1100 or 11-87 if you keep it clean. Off the topic, but for home defensive use, I keep a plain jane 16" AR along with a Surefire light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 The guns people use for self-defense should be the ones they shoot all the time or copies there of with all the operating controls in the same place. If you shoot a semi-auto all the time in competition, but keep a pump gun for home defense, are you going to want to have to think about running the gun on a conscious level should the time come? Or would you rather have your mind free from thinking about running the gun, as you've done it thousands of times, and now it's at a subconscious level, so you can focus on fighting and surviving. I've seen a couple guys at the local matches that usually shoot autos bring the pump gun out for a day to play, and they're a mess....you think you'll do better under life and death stress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxlawmax Posted June 20, 2007 Author Share Posted June 20, 2007 The guns people use for self-defense should be the ones they shoot all the time or copies there of with all the operating controls in the same place. Exactly. In fact, that's about 1/3 of the reason I compete all together: I want to make what I already know about shooting instinctive and automatic for defensive purposes, I want to improve my skills for defensive purposes, and I want to have fun. That's why I'll focus on competing with set-ups that mimick defensive & carry rigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I saw a couple of very respectable 3-gun semi-auto shotgun shooters get very confused using a pump and a side-by-side while defending a lake shore from invading ducks. They even shot the decoys. I'm sticking to my semi-auto for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 If I could defend shooting someone in the first place I think I could defend shooting them with my match shotgun. I dont care to defend getting buried, second place in a gun fight sucks. Benellie for me, M2 S90, autoloader, first choice, after that its whatever I can get my hands on.--------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZephyrNewYork Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Great info, everyone Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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