.40 Bear Creek (Moly) Bullets And Factory Glock Barrel Issues

[PLINK]

I am currently reloading .40 S&W using a Factory Glock barrel. A few things have come up and I want to get some advise on. First I will give you all of the details of the equipment being used.

Press Set Up:

Dillon 550B

All Dillon Dies Except for the Lee FCD

Lee FCD Die is set to one full turn (I will explain why)

Load:

.40 S&W 180 grain RNFP BC bullets

4.1 grains of TG

1.130 - 1.135 OAL (seems to vary slightly sometimes)

.41 crimp (measured with dial calipers) (see 2B)

Mixed brass

Pistol:

Glock 35 with Factory Barrel

On with the issues:

1. Moly or Lead (I think it is moly) build up in barrel. The more and more I shoot these bullets the more of this residue builds up and becomes harder to clean out. I have used Kroil and JB paste and most of it will come out but after about 2 1/2 hours of work. I have been leaving some of it in the barrel lately because I have been using Kroil for cleaning then a light coat of CLP for storage.

Do you guys just leave the residue in there and not worry about it?

The reason I shoot these bullets is I get them locally for $25.99 for 500. I have not found anything that comes close to this price and they shoot pretty well as far as I can tell. I have pulled a few bullets and I can not see any stripping.

2A. Random Keyhole hits. I usually get 3-4 random keyhole hits a match. They seem to come closer to the begining of the match and I have not seen any in the later stages. I got only 3 in todays match out of about 90 or so shots on paper. These were in stage 1 and stage 2.

Any ideas?

2B. I had to turn the Lee FCD down from 1/2 turn to 1 full turn. With the dies set at 1/2 turn, the finished rounds would clear the Dillon Case guage but were hard to hand chamber in the barrel. They would not free fall out of the barrel, even hard to fully push in the chamber. As you all know the Glock factory chamber is very loose. I did fire about 200 of these because at first I never checked these rounds by hand in the barrel. I figured if it clears the case guage I should be good, right? I never did experience any feed issue. I found this in my search for the keyholing problem which seems to have gotten better since I change the Lee FCD to 1 full turn. With the Lee FCD set at 1 full turn, the rounds hand chamber and free fall out of the barrel. Since doing this, I can see a visible line on the pulled bullet. Using calipers I can not see a difference in the measurement, measuring before and after the "crimp" line on the bullets.

Does any of this sound right? Anything to worry about?

Sorry for being so long but felt I would get better answers the more details I include.

TIA

Edited June 11, 2007 by PLINK

[yoshidaex]

a search will come up with all the answers you're looking for.

But heres what I do for 40 S&W

My crimp is at .421 with precision or bear creek moly bullets. Yours being .41 could be the cause of some of your keyholing issues though that should apply more to plated or jacketed bullets. Not sure about moly bullets. If you're using mixed brass, it might be helpful to use a Lee "U" sizing die or the EGW "U" sizing die (Both are made by Lee and I'm not sure what the difference is). The Lee/EGW die will size the case farther down than any other die thats available to the general public. You can have a machine shop grind down your current die but getting the Lee/EGW die is easier. The Lee FCD die should size (not smaller than the sizing die though) and crimp to factory specs. I have both the EGW "U" sizing die and the Lee FCD die. Brass I size thru the EGW die will fit easily in the Lee FCD almost all the way to the base. I use the Lee FCD to crimp and if a brass has excessive spring back ( i use whatever i find at the local in door range. certain headstamps only of course). I have had a few "jams from hell where the case literally would not chamber and jammed the gun up tight using just the EGW "U" die. Now with the EGW"U" die and the Lee FCD die, I have zero problems feeding and don't bother case gauging my practice rounds. Though for a big match I will case gauge my rounds.

As for your build up, I can't comment on any of it since you're using the factory glock barrel. I've shot quite a few rounds of moly (about 10k) thru my storm lake barrel and cleaned it maybe once or twice. I think some people here will go longer. I can't remember exactly but there is a solution you can mix up that will get rid of the moly build up without too much work. I don't have the answer to that one so you'll have to use the search function for that one. try "cleaning moly". you might have luck there.

Hope you figure your issues out. Let us know how it goes.

[PLINK]

yoshidaex thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.

I have been doing some searching but this site is very weird about how it works. The more or less key words have been resulting in an error. I will try again using one to two words.

I was thinking of trying the U die but I thought this was used more for an aftermarket barrel ie KKM, SL, LW, etc. Hell if this will help with the build up then I will be buying one. I have not experience any FTE, FTF's of any kind with what I currently have.

Maybe in some way turning the Lee FCD down to 1 full turn is sizing the case further allowing the case to be hand chamber and free fall out. This is resulting in more crimp which may be causing the random keyholing. What is weird is when I had the Lee FCD set at 1/2 turn the round would not hand chamber freely but if I turn the case around (primer in chamber) the case would fall right out. This telling me that something was going on the mouth end of the case. This is way I tried turning the Lee FCD down to 1 full turn. I too have been told/ read that keyholing is more of a plated or jacketed related problem.

I measured the crimp on some factory rounds that I have on hand.

.40 Blazer 180 grain FMJ is .41

.40 Blazer Brass 180 grain is under .41 (using dial calipers for both)

I also read that it can take 10 to 20 shots of moly bullets to "foul" the barrel to allow stabilized flight. Could be why I am seeing the random keyholing at the begining of the match with a clean barrel?

I am also finding out that there is a lot of IPSC shooters who do not clean their guns often. I like to clean mine after every shooting session. Maybe it is time for an exception.

I hope I am saying everthing correctly so you all understand. Thanks again.

Edited June 11, 2007 by PLINK

[Matt Griffin]

I shoot masterblasters out of the same setup, which is pretty much apples-to-apples. I've never experienced any keyholing, although I use 4.3-4.4 grains of TG.

As for the buildup, I see the same thing, you can never quite get the rifling clean, no matter how much you brush. The easy solution is to run a box of jacketed rounds through the barrel, this will remove most of the crud. FWIW, I put 5000 rounds of moly down the barrel before I did this, so there aren't any inherent problems you will experience with regular cleaning, despite the buildup.

H.

[yoshidaex]

PLINK,

The Lee FCD can be adjusted in 2 ways. When you say 1 turn in, do you mean 1 turn of the knurled knob or 1 turn of the die body itself? Is yours a different design than whats available now? Also is the die itself barely kissing the shell plate? I adjust my crimp with the knurled knob. The die body itself, I leave alone as long as the die is touching the shell plate unless the die mysteriously unloosens itself . I'm thinking the area just before the extractor groove/base on the brass has a "guppied belly". Try measuring your completed rounds, top, middle, bottom and one of a factory round top, middle, bottom and compare. See where your measurements are off. By the way, when you measure your completed rounds in the 3 locations, rotate them 90 degrees to get a measurement on 2 planes. The factory round measurement is just for reference so don't be too alarmed if your measurements are slightly off. If your measurements are WAY off, you have issues with your die setup.

As for why my crimp is .421, the bullet (brand new) measures .401. Taking into consideration the case wall is .010 (times 2), it should measure .421. Your bullet will be held in by the case tension and not the crimp of the mouth. The crimp process should only take the belling out. Bullet setback is prevented by the sizing process (hence the very slight coke bottle look).

Let us know what sort of measurements you get. I'm sure we can get you on the road to trouble free rounds in no time

Houngan,

I forgot about the "shoot jacketed bullets to clean out the barrel" technique. i haven't cleaned my barrel in such a long time let alone my gun.....

Edited June 11, 2007 by yoshidaex

[PLINK]

I shoot masterblasters out of the same setup, which is pretty much apples-to-apples. I've never experienced any keyholing, although I use 4.3-4.4 grains of TG.

As for the buildup, I see the same thing, you can never quite get the rifling clean, no matter how much you brush. The easy solution is to run a box of jacketed rounds through the barrel, this will remove most of the crud. FWIW, I put 5000 rounds of moly down the barrel before I did this, so there aren't any inherent problems you will experience with regular cleaning, despite the buildup.

H.

So basically you clean the barrel at regular intervals but don't spend to much time on the build up. Is this correct?

The build up I have starts about 1/2 inch past the chamber, is kinda heavy in the middle and thins out toward the end of the muzzle. Does this sound like the same pattern of build up you have?

If the build up is a normal process then I will leave it alone and follow your directions on shooting the jacketed bullets. Thanks for your help.

[PLINK]

PLINK,

The Lee FCD can be adjusted in 2 ways. When you say 1 turn in, do you mean 1 turn of the knurled knob or 1 turn of the die body itself? Is yours a different design than whats available now? Also is the die itself barely kissing the shell plate? I adjust my crimp with the knurled knob. The die body itself, I leave alone as long as the die is touching the shell plate unless the die mysteriously unloosens itself . I'm thinking the area just before the extractor groove/base on the brass has a "guppied belly". Try measuring your completed rounds, top, middle, bottom and one of a factory round top, middle, bottom and compare. See where your measurements are off. By the way, when you measure your completed rounds in the 3 locations, rotate them 90 degrees to get a measurement on 2 planes. The factory round measurement is just for reference so don't be too alarmed if your measurements are slightly off. If your measurements are WAY off, you have issues with your die setup.

As for why my crimp is .421, the bullet (brand new) measures .401. Taking into consideration the case wall is .010 (times 2), it should measure .421. Your bullet will be held in by the case tension and not the crimp of the mouth. The crimp process should only take the belling out. Bullet setback is prevented by the sizing process (hence the very slight coke bottle look).

Let us know what sort of measurements you get. I'm sure we can get you on the road to trouble free rounds in no time

Houngan,

I forgot about the "shoot jacketed bullets to clean out the barrel" technique. i haven't cleaned my barrel in such a long time let alone my gun.....

The Lee FCD was purchased new from Midway two months ago. I just followed the instructions that were in the box. Screw the die body down til it just touches the shell plate, put loaded round in die, turn knurled knob til it just touches the bullet, remove round from die, and then turn knurled knob down 1 full turn.

I got ya the crimp just taking the bell out and the case tension is what holds the bullet in. I originally had too much bell at one time. I noticed this because the bell was partially removed during the seating of the bullet. I readjusted the bell to have just enough to seat the bullet without stripping the moly.

I will try to get the measurements tonight. Thanks again.

[yoshidaex]

PLINK,

Sounds like your FCD is setup correctly. I'll assume your dillon sizing/decapping die is setup so its touching the shell plate also. Try this experiment. Size a piece of brass in station one (should be your sizing/decapping die), remove the brass from the shell plate and see how far up it will go into the FCD (by hand and not in the shell plate). I'm gonna guess your brass you just sized will stick out about a 1/4" or maybe more, maybe slightly less. If thats the result, a EGW or Lee "U" die should solve your problems. You do know about the glock "guppy belly" brass right? Just trying to cover all the bases.

Edited June 11, 2007 by yoshidaex

[PLINK]

PLINK,

Sounds like your FCD is setup correctly. I'll assume your dillon sizing/decapping die is setup so its touching the shell plate also. Try this experiment. Size a piece of brass in station one (should be your sizing/decapping die), remove the brass from the shell plate and see how far up it will go into the FCD (by hand and not in the shell plate). I'm gonna guess your brass you just sized will stick out about a 1/4" or maybe more, maybe slightly less. If thats the result, a EGW or Lee "U" die should solve your problems. You do know about the glock "guppy belly" brass right? Just trying to cover all the bases.

The brass would not go all the way in the Lee FCD. It would stop at the base of the case. I tried putting the loaded Blazer brass round in the Lee FCD in it went all the way through, head in all. The Dillon sizing die was set up as you described above. I do know about the Glock'ed brass. I ordered a EGW U die and it's on the way. Got some spare decap pins too. I guess I could get that aftermarket barrel sometime once I start using the U die. Thanks again for all of your help.

[yoshidaex]

sounds like you're on the right track. If you still have some bullet tumbling issues, try reducing your crimp to .421 and see if that makes a difference. The "U" die should help the chambering issue.

[Overkill]

Try loading a round up with less crimp (1/4 to 1/2 turn) and a shorter OAL. The BC 180 has a very short nose, IOW, the bearing surface of the bullet starts early. I have my 180s at 1.115 now. It might be that you're squeezing the bullet down to get the free chambering, not necessarily the brass. Loading short will keep the bullet from getting into the rifling before the round is fully chambered (brass rim on the chamber lip). Reducing the diameter of the bullet by over crimping could cause the keyholing by messing up the fit between bullet and rifling. It could also contribute to the build up by messing up the moly coating. The looser bullet might also hamper the self cleaning of the buildup.

[yoshidaex]

I forgot to mention when using the "U" die, you may run into some brass crushing situations. Just make sure the brass is in the shell plate properly to prevent the crushed brass problem. It might slow your reloading process but you should come out with better quality rounds.

[Matt Griffin]

I shoot masterblasters out of the same setup, which is pretty much apples-to-apples. I've never experienced any keyholing, although I use 4.3-4.4 grains of TG.

As for the buildup, I see the same thing, you can never quite get the rifling clean, no matter how much you brush. The easy solution is to run a box of jacketed rounds through the barrel, this will remove most of the crud. FWIW, I put 5000 rounds of moly down the barrel before I did this, so there aren't any inherent problems you will experience with regular cleaning, despite the buildup.

H.

So basically you clean the barrel at regular intervals but don't spend to much time on the build up. Is this correct?

The build up I have starts about 1/2 inch past the chamber, is kinda heavy in the middle and thins out toward the end of the muzzle. Does this sound like the same pattern of build up you have?

If the build up is a normal process then I will leave it alone and follow your directions on shooting the jacketed bullets. Thanks for your help.

You've got it. It's dirty as hell after any shooting from both the coating and the Titegroup, so I usually brush it every 200 rounds or so, but the rifling maintains the crud we're talking about. It doesn't seem to have any negative effects (at least, I can shoot bullseye with my G35 as well as I can with my fancy 1911, so it ain't the gun) other than cosmetic.

H.

[North]

Out of my STI i get leading from Heck with Bear creek, but with masterblasters I just get a little bit. Both 180 grain with 4.2 grains of tight group. Master Blaster is just a harder bullet, I won't buy any more bear ceek. I'm trying to use up the 3K I have left.

[PLINK]

Try loading a round up with less crimp (1/4 to 1/2 turn) and a shorter OAL. The BC 180 has a very short nose, IOW, the bearing surface of the bullet starts early. I have my 180s at 1.115 now. It might be that you're squeezing the bullet down to get the free chambering, not necessarily the brass. Loading short will keep the bullet from getting into the rifling before the round is fully chambered (brass rim on the chamber lip). Reducing the diameter of the bullet by over crimping could cause the keyholing by messing up the fit between bullet and rifling. It could also contribute to the build up by messing up the moly coating. The looser bullet might also hamper the self cleaning of the buildup.

Ok, I tried this.

I went down to 1.115 and 1.105 (just for fun). These loads still required a little pressure (not as much as before but was still there) to hand chamber and would not fall free (no change). Turned the Lee FCD down to 3/4 and they would hand chamber and free fall out.

What is surprising to me is the Glock Factory chamber is huge. It should not take the further sizing of the Lee FCD to allow these loaded rounds to freely be hand chambered. Also keep in mind when I had the Lee FCD set at 1/2 turn, which barely left a crimp mark on the bullet, would pass the Dillon Case guage with no problem.

I am going to shoot the 300 I have loaded and I am going to start over with the EGW U die. Maybe the build up will change. Maybe the random keyholing will go away. If not, I will chock it up as a price you pay for buying cheap bullets. Shoot the 2500 bullets and possibly try something else.

Thanks for all that replied. I will post up what happens with the EGW die. Anyone else who wants to post their thoughts or experience, I would be happy to read them.

Edited June 13, 2007 by PLINK

[BR]

I can't remember exactly but there is a solution you can mix up that will get rid of the moly build up without too much work. I don't have the answer to that one so you'll have to use the search function for that one. try "cleaning moly". you might have luck there.

I was told to try 50/50 mix of white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide.

-br

[Craiger]

I can't remember exactly but there is a solution you can mix up that will get rid of the moly build up without too much work. I don't have the answer to that one so you'll have to use the search function for that one. try "cleaning moly". you might have luck there.

I was told to try 50/50 mix of white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide.

-br

I would only use the 50/50 WV/HP on a stainless steel barrel I think you will pit a non stainles barrel with the 50/50 mix...

[Jaxshooter]

Go to one of the long range rifle web sites and ask the question. Most of those guys use moly bullets.

[PLINK]

UPDATE:

I wanted to give an update on this. What I found is that the rounds must hand chamber in the factory barrel freely and free fall from the barrel with no resistance to avoid the random key hole hits using moly bullets. The Glock chamber is very loose as we all know. I found with the rounds that would stick they can potentially be inserted into the chamber a hair crooked. I believe the gas would escape on one side of the bullet more than the other sides causing instability to the bullet which would make the bullet tumble. What got me on this idea is the post in this link http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/bullet_tumble.html . I found this with google. How I tested this theory is I turned the FCD down so it would final size the case even more. I ignored the crimp measurement. I new it was going to more. I then hand chambered each and every finished round in the barrel using it as a case gauge. Any sticky rounds got tossed. I was able to save a few by running it through the FCD again. Guess what? No bullet tumbling = No key holes hits.

Next, I added the Lee U die to the mix still using the factory barrel. Hoping I can size the case more with the sizing die and hoping to back the FCD out some. I turned the FCD to 1/2 turn like the directions say. The finished rounds would hand chamber with very, very little resistance but most would not free fall out. I decided to try these out. Guess what? Key hole hit were back about 50-60%.

Last, I decided to try the LWD barrel. This is very nice by the way. I am not at all disappointed in the appearance, workmanship, finish or accuracy. Anyway, I ended up changing the OAL to 1.125 because the 1.135 rounds seem to be (at least to me) grabbing the rifling a little. I did not change the powder measurement which is at 4.1 grains of TG because I knew I was close to the floor of the Major PF with the factory barrel. I will need to chrono these new loads because I have read the traditional rifled barrel can vary 30 to 70 fps slower. Anyway, I ended up setting the FCD to 1 full turn because at ½ and 3/4 turn the rounds would not hand chamber freely. I was getting a 50/50 mix of rounds that would free fall out and ones that would stick a just a little. I decided to try them both to see what happens. All 100 rounds feed and fired flawless with NO random key hole hits. None. What I gather is with the tighter chamber the round placement is pretty much the same whether or not the round can fall freely out of the barrel. There is not much room for it to be placed at any kind of angle.

I also want to add that in my experience more crimp did not equal key holes with moly bullets. It was quite the opposite. The caking of moly is also seems to be far less with the LWD barrel. I am going to shoot about 200 more of these tomorrow. I am expecting to have the same good results with the LWD barrel. What is funny all the .40 rounds I ever loaded would pass the Dillon case gauge. For now on I will only be using the barrel which kinda sucks because I have to take the gun apart.

This is just my experience. I am not out to prove anyone wrong or to start an argument.

Edited June 29, 2007 by PLINK

[Joe D]

It sounds to me like over crimping. I had the same problem several years ago with .40. I would get rounds that would not go all the way into the case gage. About half of the rim would be sticking out. I backed off my taper crimp about a turn and the problem went away.

I have found no need for the FCD or the "U" die. I just use a RCBS taper crimp die to seat and crimp. The standard Lee carbide die will size away any "Glock Bulge".

[LPatterson]

The following was extracted fro the MasterBlaster web site

LOADING GUIDE:

Here is some information to help you get the best performance from our bullets.

You can use your favorite loads and data, it does not matter whether it is a load for jacketed or lead bullets. Our polymer coating can handle velocities up 1400 fps, before breakdown. Just, remember that you should see a slight increase in velocities 50-70 fps

Put a good bell on your brass. If you don't you'll scrape the coating on the sides of the bullet and this will result in increased smoke and leading.

Reduce your initial cup pressures:

Use intermediate burn rate powders, we have included a burn rate chart and recommend powders from #14 clays and slower. Many customers use the faster powders with good success, but we've found really fast powders do increase the chance of some minor smoke and leading.

A Firm crimp will improve performance, and reduce unburned powder charges.

We personally recommend Ramshot and Vihta Vouri powders. We feel that their quality and consistency produce superior loads with our bullets.

END

This may not apply to other Moly bullets but I know that changing to WST in my .45 with Precision Moly has eliminated any moly residue in the barrel.

[Gdaym8]

On the cleaning issue. I use BC molly bullets in a factory G17 barrel. The 50/50 solution works fine, but you have to discard the stuff somewhere. I recently tried the M-Pro 7 bore gel and it was great. Let it sit for 10 minutes, then wiped the barrel clean. It did not require a brush. I was very impressed.