Stupid Noob Questions Chapter 2: Not ruining your S_I

[taxlawmax]

What's up?

I've heard random bits of information on what NOT to do to your 1911 or 2011 to avoid ruining a good trigger job, or even doing more serious damage to the gun. Now, I know you gotta use snap-caps, but I don't have a clear picture of, say, all the ways I can damage the gun while dry-firing. Knowing me, I will damage it if you don't warn me first.

I don't want to do any damage to the gun that I don't need to do to shoot & practice. Any tips?

Edited May 10, 2007 by taxlawmax

[BrianH]

I don't know of any. I been dry-firing 1911's for a long time and have yet to damage anything.

I think that's more a gun store thing...."DON'T DRY-FIRE THE GUN!!!!!"

[G-ManBart]

What's up?

I've heard random bits of information on what NOT to do to your 1911 or 2011 to avoid ruining a good trigger job, or even doing more serious damage to the gun. Now, I know you gotta use snap-caps, but I don't have a clear picture of, say, all the ways I can damage the gun while dry-firing. Knowing me, I will damage it if you don't warn me first.

I don't want to do any damage to the gun that I don't need to do to shoot & practice. Any tips?

No real need to use snap caps, but they won't hurt anything. The one big no-no is to let the slide slam forward on an empty chamber....that's what really kills trigger jobs as it beats the heck out of the sear and hammer hooks. Oh, and when you take the gun apart for cleaning, don't pull the trigger/drop the hammer when the slide is off the frame as that can ruin the hammer.

[lynn jones]

dry firing is a good thing. the only thing that i think will lead to damaging your gun, would be dropping the slide on an empty chamber from slide lock.

lynn

[GentlemanJim]

Do a search on dry firing you will find tons of info...dry firing does not hurt 1911 guns

But it will improve your shooting

Jim

[konkapot]

As stated above, dry-firing is not a problem.

What IS a problem.....especially with new gun owners (no offense) is when people play "gunsmith" and ruin their gun and have to send it back to Mr. Londrigan. Keep your dremel locked up.

Shoot.....clean.....shoot....clean.....repeat.

FY42385

[racerba]

Please explain how dropping the slide on an empty chamber ruins the gun. I don't understand how it kills the sear and hammer hooks? I don't see how not having a round in the chamber makes a difference in the way the gun functions. The only thing that the round affect is the extractor. I know not to manually put a round in the chamber and let the slide drop on the round. That's the only "bad" thing to not do that I know of (as far as releasing the slide and dry firing).

Edited May 10, 2007 by racerba

[al503]

On the Nationals DVD's, I see a lot of the top guys racking their slide back to unload and then catching the bullet in the air (letting their slide slam forward.)

[taxlawmax]

Yeah, I never really understood exactly what the problem is with dropping the slide on an empty chamber. I don't have the internals of the 1911 memorized, but it sounds kinda mystical... what difference would that make to the sear & hammer hooks?

[taxlawmax]

Oh, and I will NEVER touch Dremel to STI. I'm from New York City. Any attempt to modify the thing could not go well.

[BrianH]

Yeah, I never really understood exactly what the problem is with dropping the slide on an empty chamber. I don't have the internals of the 1911 memorized, but it sounds kinda mystical... what difference would that make to the sear & hammer hooks?

It's just the slide's moving a little faster so the hammer hooks hit the sear a little harder. That sear tip is pretty thin so the less smacking the better.

[DMS42]

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber will cause the hammer to bounce on the sear. Do it often enough and you'll need a trigger job and in most cases a new hammer and sear. The engagement surfaces get worn, then sometimes when you chamber a round by dropping the slide the gun will go full auto. It is not a good idea, if you must, at least hold the hammer back, if you can.

[racerba]

It's just the slide's moving a little faster so the hammer hooks hit the sear a little harder. That sear tip is pretty thin so the less smacking the better.

OK - I see where the slide is moving faster, but the hammer is not part of the slide. When you pull the slide back, the hammer is resting against the bottom of the slide. When the slide is released, the hammer falls onto the sear from it's position. I don't see how the speed of the slide has anything to do whit how fast or hard the hammer falls. It might fall a split second sooner with an empty chamber, but harder?

Dropping the slide on an empty chamber will cause the hammer to bounce on the sear.

Same confused answer as above. How does the hammer bounce on an empty chamber while it doesn't bounce on a round? Can't the wear you talk about occur naturally anyway?

[Steve Anderson]

I don't know know if you could find a gun that's been dry fired more than my caspian...no issues whatsoever with trigger components. No snaps or dummy rounds.

I did break a safety dry firing, however.

I'm also a slide-racker-ammo-catcher-unloader-show-clearer-guy, but I (and most others I've seen) ride the slide closed and do not let it slam.

I'm not very gunsmithy, but the sound of a gun slamming home from slide lock gives the heebie-jeebies.

SA

[konkapot]

racerba-

You are thinking about the OUTSIDE of the gun.

Picture the INSIDE, specifically where the sear and hammer meet. If you haven't taken your 1911 all the way apart, this won't mean much to you.

Even though the hammer is back, it still "bounces" for a very small distance and a very short time. It bounces precisely on that tiny itty bitty little engagement point where the hammer and sear touch. The sear is pretty much only held there by your 17-19 lb mainspring.

It doesn't bounce when you are feeding a round into the chamber because the slide does not go forward as hard........

The slide comes to a harder, more violent stop with no round in the chamber....it is that impact that causes the bouncing.

Although I realize that there are plenty of shooters who catch the Unload/Show Clear round, if you look, MOST of them (the smart ones, anyways) aren't letting their slide SLAM home.

If you gradually stop your car, the can of pop in the cupholder will....do nothing. If you crash your car into your neighbor's house, the can of pop will go flying. Even though the can of pop didn't hit your neighbor's house.

If you get a chance, enlarge the medals that DMS42 has in his avatar thingy. See if you can read what they say. And then realize that he has TWO of them.

FY42385

[racerba]

The slide comes to a harder, more violent stop with no round in the chamber....it is that impact that causes the bouncing.

I'm not doubting what you guys are saying, I guess I just don't see it. I am aware of the workings of a 1911. I just don't see the logic behind it. The soda pop is inside the car while the hammer is outside the slide, so the analogy doesn't work for me. The slide has little to do with the hammer and sear engagement. Let me explain how I see it:

- While the slide is back, it is holding the hammer back from hitting the sear.

- When the slide is fully forward, it allows the hammer to rest on the sear.

- OK - if you release the slide on a round, it travels slower than if it is released on an empty chamber - this I see.

- the only positive force on the hammer is the main spring, which is transfered to the sear while the hammer is engaging the sear. This force does not and cannot change by the speed of the slide. The hammer is still travelling the same distance with the same force. All the slide is doing is holding the hammer back while the mainspring is pushing the hammer against the slide. The 17-19 Lb mainspring is still going to push the hammer with the same force onto the sear, just sooner. I can see that the slide can "bounce" , but I still cannot see the hammer bouncing. Hence I can see damage being done to the slide.

Am I missing something? Anyway, thanks for trying to explain. I will keep it in mind and not let the slide drop on an empty chamber. At least it doesn't hurt to do so.

Thanks,

Bob A.

Edited May 11, 2007 by racerba

[GENE S]

If you gradually stop your car, the can of pop in the cupholder will....do nothing. If you crash your car into your neighbor's house, the can of pop will go flying. Even though the can of pop didn't hit your neighbor's house.

........Pop..............

Haven't heard that in some time..

[gringop]

A hard impact of the slide slamming into battery will force the whole frame forward a bit. The hammer has it's own mass and a good bit of that mass is up in the head. The frame goes forward, the hammer head stays back until the mainspring forces it forward. The sear and hammer hooks engage stopping the hammer's foreward rotation.

Also, when the frame goes forward the trigger tends to bounce rearward. Combine the trigger's rearward movement with the hammer bouncing on the sear and you can get the sear disengaging slightly from the hammer hooks

All of this motion is not very pronounced but it does happen. If you have a delicate 2lbs. trigger, over time enough of these slide drops can and has damaged sears and hammer hooks. Many Bullseye shooters make it a habit to hold down the trigger when releasing the slide to protect their trigger jobs.

This being said, I have dropped the slide on my Kimbers many times without ruining my home job gunplumber 4.5 lbs trigger. My heavy trigger/sear springs seem to protect the sear pretty well. That doesn't mean it is a good idea, and if I had a high dollar race gun with a 2lbs trigger I would not do it.

Thanks, Gringop

[G-ManBart]

Since reading this I've meant to bring my copy of Wilson's Combat Auto home because it has a great, detailed, explanation of why you shouldn't let the slide close on an empty chamber. One thing that I do recall is that when you press the trigger, it disconnects the sear from the hammer so there isn't any way to transfer energy between the two...and when the gun cycles normally, it happens while the trigger is pressed and the sear/hammer are not connected to one another. If you let the slide close on an empty chamber, the sear and hammer are connected. I'll try to remember to bring that book home on Monday so I don't misquote anything.

[Bluemax29]

No real need to use snap caps, but they won't hurt anything. The one big no-no is to let the slide slam forward on an empty chamber....that's what really kills trigger jobs as it beats the heck out of the sear and hammer hooks. Oh, and when you take the gun apart for cleaning, don't pull the trigger/drop the hammer when the slide is off the frame as that can ruin the hammer.

I have seen it snap the hammer in half. Not a good thing.

[G-ManBart]

No real need to use snap caps, but they won't hurt anything. The one big no-no is to let the slide slam forward on an empty chamber....that's what really kills trigger jobs as it beats the heck out of the sear and hammer hooks. Oh, and when you take the gun apart for cleaning, don't pull the trigger/drop the hammer when the slide is off the frame as that can ruin the hammer.

I have seen it snap the hammer in half. Not a good thing.

Yeah, there's a guy in our office who's on SWAT and carries the issued Springer TRP-PRO...every time he cleans it he takes off the slide and pulls the trigger. I cringe and wait for the hammer to snap and go flying across the room

Ft. Rucker huh? My dad was stationed there before I was born, but I've seen tons of pics and heard lots of stories!

[racerba]

One thing that I do recall is that when you press the trigger, it disconnects the sear from the hammer so there isn't any way to transfer energy between the two...and when the gun cycles normally, it happens while the trigger is pressed and the sear/hammer are not connected to one another.

That makes sense. So it would/should be OK to drop the slide on an empty chamber while pressing the trigger?

[Chuck Merriam]

NO the lugs on the barrel will take a beating along with the link and pin. Just makes sense because the slide should be slowing down to grab and chamber a round.

[G-ManBart]

One thing that I do recall is that when you press the trigger, it disconnects the sear from the hammer so there isn't any way to transfer energy between the two...and when the gun cycles normally, it happens while the trigger is pressed and the sear/hammer are not connected to one another.

That makes sense. So it would/should be OK to drop the slide on an empty chamber while pressing the trigger?

Chuck already answered your question, but an interesting aside is that years ago, a lot of people taught that the way to properly load a 1911 was to lock the slide back, insert a mag, pull the trigger and then release the slide with your left hand (for a righty)...for obvious reasons, that was discontinued

I looked at the Wilson book today and it didn't give as detailed a description as I thought it did...just said that letting the slide go forward on an empty chamber beat up the sear and hammer hooks, lugs, link and pin for the reasons already stated. My memory must be fading!

[racerba]

Thanks Chuck and G-Man. I can see the lug, link and pin getting beat up. I still don't see the hammer and sear thing though, but that's just me. I'll still won't drop the slide on an empty chamber anyway.