Problems Reloading For The 625 In 45acp

[BillD]

I recently purchased a used 4" 625 with the lock.

I have reloaded over 35K of 45ACP rounds for semi autos. I use a Dillon 650 with a Lee full length resizing die. Loads run about 175 PF with a 230 gr bullet. I use mixed brass, no Amerc.

Problem: when I load up the moon clips, I am getting a 50-75% failure rate. The failure is the rounds won't go all the way into the cylinder on the revolver. Just too tight. Now, they fit a go-no go gauge and they work perfectly in my semiautos.

Does Smith and Wesson hone out (?) the cylinders to make this work? Will chamfering help?

Should I buy some new Starline brass and use that exclusively for the revolver? (major PITA).

This happens with many different moon clips, most brand new.

I am grasping at straws here. All help appreciated, thanks,

Bill

[Carmoney]

That's unusual, Bill. Sounds like what we used to see routinely with the 625-2 Model of 1988 variation, but that's obviously not the problem with your gun....unless they found some old cylinders they wanted to use up (which is a possibility). You should not need to use special brass.

Chamfering would only help if there is a sharp edge creating the binding. I guess that's possible.

You may be able to polish the chambers and solve the problem. Take a stainless brush and wrap it with steel wool until it's very tight in the chambers. Screw it on a straight cleaning rod and chuck it in your hand drill. You know what to do from there.

Otherwise, somebody's going to have to ream the chambers for you. Those moonclips need to drop right in.

[Waltermitty]

Are the rounds tight when they are put in the cylinder individually (i.e. without the moon clip?)

Is a "tight" round "tight" in all 6 holes?

Are any rounds less "tight" or "loose"?

It's possible a good de-leading on the cylinder would help. Sometimes a combination of lead bullets and certain high-residue powders can build up.

I use Starline exclusively because you don't lose much and it's easy to keep straight. I have found that certain "mixed brass" types can be *very* tight in the moon clip; and if that brass isn't aligned just right it will resist that last little bit to fall in. It's not so much the outside diameter of the brass which is controlled by the reloading dies, but the diameter and quality of the web of the brass.

I have destroyed moon clips trying to use certain runs of Federal, CBC (MagTec?) and other brass. Even if I get the rounds in, I bend the moons trying to get it back out.

[Carlos]

Hi Bill & welcome to the 625 club. I noticed you did not mention what type of 230 grain bullet you use. Is it a lead bullet? Could it be oversized slightly?

Also, you wrote: "The failure is the rounds won't go all the way into the cylinder on the revolver. Just too tight. "

If it is not a build up of crud in the cyclinder, then I suspect something is up with the ammo. Do you use the Lee FCD too?

[High Plains Drifter]

Bill,

I too ran into this problem awhile ago.... this is what I did to isolate the problem

At first I thought it was the moon clips... so

1 When you find a moon clip that will not drop in fully... remove it, de-moon and try each round one at a time in each of the charge holes... If they all drop in it is probably the moon clip... (I had a batch that were out of spec )

2. More probable is you will find that 1 or more of the individual rounds will not fully drop into the charge hole. And here is what I found

a. When using mixed brass fired from semi autos especially those with non-fully supported barrels or slightly over sized chambers can leave a slight bulge at the base... a full length sizing die cannot reach far enough to the rim to prevent the seating problem from occurring in a revolver.(they worked fine in my bottom feeders also)

b. Using a Lee sizing die further exacerbates the problem especially if you do not lube the cases before running them through the die.

c. I had much better luck using a Dillon sizing die with well lubed cases. YMMV

d. 100% of this problem was eliminated by running all my mixed brass through a Case Pro roll sizer and then reloading.... (after roll sizing, either die worked with or without resizing lube)

I used that brass exclusively in my revo's and never had the problem return. Hope this helps.

just my $.02

[Carmoney]

This happens with many different moon clips, most brand new.

What kind of moon clips? (See my separate warning post on el junko ebay moon clips.)

I'm a mixed brass guy myself. And I use a wad of old moon clips I've accumulated over the years (mostly Ranch Products manufactured, plus one Hearthco I think I stole from Keith), with no problems whatsoever. I won't use a revolver that's finicky about that stuff--life's too short as it is.

Incidentally, I also load my ammo on a pair of Square Deal Bs, which seem to do a very nice job of full-length sizing the brass in various handgun calibers.

[TonyT]

I believe your problem is due to expanded case rims from repeated firings in a semi-auto. Try some new cases to see if that alleviates the problem. Sometimes judicious filing of the case rim will eliminate the problem.

I recently purchased a used 4" 625 with the lock.

I have reloaded over 35K of 45ACP rounds for semi autos. I use a Dillon 650 with a Lee full length resizing die. Loads run about 175 PF with a 230 gr bullet. I use mixed brass, no Amerc.

Problem: when I load up the moon clips, I am getting a 50-75% failure rate. The failure is the rounds won't go all the way into the cylinder on the revolver. Just too tight. Now, they fit a go-no go gauge and they work perfectly in my semiautos.

Does Smith and Wesson hone out (?) the cylinders to make this work? Will chamfering help?

Should I buy some new Starline brass and use that exclusively for the revolver? (major PITA).

This happens with many different moon clips, most brand new.

I am grasping at straws here. All help appreciated, thanks,

Bill

[pskys2]

I have a buddy who has a 4" 625JM and the cylinders were so rough you had to pound the rounds into the chambers.

Look into the holes and see if there are any obvious tool marks. It could be the reason it was sold. They can be polished out, and S&W should do it for free.

What brass are you using? I ran into Federal Top Brass that were so thick, even new, that you couldn't load all six rounds into the moonclip. You could force the 5th in, but the 6th wouldn't go. And if it did they wouldn't drop into the cylinder. This is the only brass I've ever seen do this.

I have one of those TK Moonclip checkers, and it's shown me many clips that would stick. They wouldn't drop free into the checker but worked fine in my 625. Virtually everyone had rounds with the rims expanded. Remember they would still work in my 625 though.

As long as the rounds are seated fully into the clip they should fit into the revolver.

More details on load/guns?

[Carmoney]

I have one of those TK Moonclip checkers, and it's shown me many clips that would stick. They wouldn't drop free into the checker but worked fine in my 625. Virtually everyone had rounds with the rims expanded. Remember they would still work in my 625 though.

Same here. I quit using the moon-checker, too much hassle. Before each major match I cylinder-check all my loaded moonclips. I don't even bother closing the cylinder, you can easily if they're OK by the way they drop in.

[Waltermitty]

I have one of those TK Moonclip checkers, and it's shown me many clips that would stick. They wouldn't drop free into the checker but worked fine in my 625. Virtually everyone had rounds with the rims expanded. Remember they would still work in my 625 though.

Same here. I quit using the moon-checker, too much hassle. Before each major match I cylinder-check all my loaded moonclips. I don't even bother closing the cylinder, you can easily if they're OK by the way they drop in.

Some of us don't easily as well as others.

[Tom E]

I had exactly the same problem when I started shooting a 625. All my brass was left overs from shooting ipsc with a 1911. A considerable number were simply too large in diameter (.476) just above the extractor groove and most full length size dies won't size the case down enough close to the groove. The solution was to have LEE make me a .002" undersize carbide factory crimp die. Leave off the crimp pieces, use it like a sizing die. It will size the case far enough down. Tom

[BillD]

Thanks guys, I will go home and check on your questions.

I use mixed brass to run in my 1911's with no problem. No AMERC but Winchester, RP, CCI, Starline, S&B, etc.

I haven't tried factory ammo, I haven't bought any in years. Guess I'll have to break down and buy a box.

I use FMJ bullets exclusively, right now I have Montana Gold 230 gr JHP.

The moon clips are brand new and were purchased from Dillon.

And I misstated in my original post. It is a Lee full length crimp die.

I really appreciate the help. I want to like this gun but I really don't want to load separately for my 1911's and my revolver.

Edited May 7, 2007 by BillD

[BillD]

I had exactly the same problem when I started shooting a 625. All my brass was left overs from shooting ipsc with a 1911. A considerable number were simply too large in diameter (.476) just above the extractor groove and most full length size dies won't size the case down enough close to the groove. The solution was to have LEE make me a .002" undersize carbide factory crimp die. Leave off the crimp pieces, use it like a sizing die. It will size the case far enough down. Tom

That sounds like my brass. I have a space in my #3 position on the Dillon 650. Could I put it there?

[mattbeck]

I am having this same problem on a 625-8 JM. It was purchased new around Christmas. Naturally the first thing I did was work on the trigger, followed immediatly by hand delivering it to Hopalong to Chamfer the cylinder. After I did the trigger job, I test fired it myself and noticed that the moon clip wouldn't seat. I just chalked it up to ammo and gave it to Sam. Fast forward to after he did the chamfer job, he asked me if I noticed a problem with the cylinder. We have determined that three chambers are undersized. According to the warranty Dept. the chamfer job may have voided the warranty, but they did send me a return label the send it back to have it checked out.

[Jaxshooter]

This is the fourth 625 JM 4" I have heard this about. The problem with one I know of was 2 of the cylinders were undersize. I don't know what the problem on the other 2 were.

[Carlos]

Undersized cylinders from S&W would certainly cause a problem. From a machining standpoint, the reamers used in mass production actually get smaller with each use (by a tiny fraction) and they have a limited lifespan - like any tool. I do not know what sort of wear Ti causes on a chamber reamer. Add in the Ti anodizing process, and it could get tricky for S&W to get it right all the time.

[Waltermitty]

Undersized cylinders from S&W would certainly cause a problem. From a machining standpoint, the reamers used in mass production actually get smaller with each use (by a tiny fraction) and they have a limited lifespan - like any tool. I do not know what sort of wear Ti causes on a chamber reamer. Add in the Ti anodizing process, and it could get tricky for S&W to get it right all the time.

I'd be happy to hear that S&W is selling enough 45 ACP revolvers to wear out some tools.

[Tom E]

BillD, I put the undersized carbide factory crimp die in my old rock chucker and just ran all my brass thru it once. You could just use it as the crimp die in your 650. I have a SDB so I don't have that option. It's easy to figure out if this is your problem. Just measure the diameter of the offending brass just above the extractor grove. Mic your chambers. It's been while since I did this but my chamber sizes were all consistent at, I think, .476ish and some of my brass was .476 plus so the cases were definitely not going to drop in. I measured new unfired R-P cases an they were just under .468. Hope this helps, Tom

[Gregg K]

This is the fourth 625 JM 4" I have heard this about. The problem with one I know of was 2 of the cylinders were undersize. I don't know what the problem on the other 2 were.

I talked to a shooter in Corpus that bought a 625JM as a backup gun and had to send it back for out of spec cylinders, he couldn't get his loads in either. My 625JM is on its third trip back home right now so I'm not shocked to hear these things.

[BillD]

I think I got it. I followed several of your suggestions. I did find 4 bent moonclips that came with the gun, I really cleaned the cylinders and I found several rounds that would not load into the cylinders without the moonclips.

I haven't been to the range yet but I got 29 moonclips loaded that drop right into the cylinders.

Thanks guys, my hats off to ya.

[dajarrel]

Bill,

You will find with time that as you shoot your gun, it needs occasional cleaning out. Not just when you go home, but perhaps every stage or two. The heart of a fast reload with a 625 is a relatively clean cylinder. The cleaner it is, the easier the reloads.

I even saw Jerry M. walking to the safety area with a cleaning brush in his hand between stages at last years A6 match.

FWIW

dj

[Carlos]

Bill,

You will find with time that as you shoot your gun, it needs occasional cleaning out. Not just when you go home, but perhaps every stage or two. The heart of a fast reload with a 625 is a relatively clean cylinder. The cleaner it is, the easier the reloads.

I even saw Jerry M. walking to the safety area with a cleaning brush in his hand between stages at last years A6 match.

FWIW

dj

Maybe a topic for another day, but I think there are quite a few folks using Clays & I am using Solo 1000 due to its clean burning qualities.

[T3P_Guy]

I had the exact same problem with my JM625 with all of the thousands of 45 brass that we have from our 1911's. The gun never had a problem with any factory ammo though so I purchased a regular Lee Factory Crimp/Sizing die and now 98% of all my reloads drop cleanly into and out of the cylinder and it works like a champ..hope this helps some.

[Carmoney]

Some of us don't easily as well as others.

Got me again!!

[Tom E]

The .002" undersize factory crimp die seems to take care of the last 2%. Tom