Tac-load Speed, How Fast?

[oregonshooter]

I'm getting ready to do my first IDPA qual next month and there is a tac-load on the clock in stage 3.

What is a Master Class tac-load speed from shot to shot?

Shot-shot meaning:

gun pointing at target, at signal shoot, tac-load, shoot

What is a Master Class string 1 on stage 3?

Draw and fire 2 shots at each T1 - T3

from either side of the barricade,

TACTICAL LOAD and fire 2 shots at

each T1 - T3 from the opposite side of

barricade.

[Ben Stoeger]

String 1 Stage 3 can get below 10 seconds with a bit of training. The best times are closer to 8 seconds though.

With your gun pointed at a 10 yard target, if you react to a beep, fire a shot, tactical load, and fire one more shot at the target, I would think 2.5-3 seconds is a pretty solid time.

Later,

Ben

[dirtypool40]

Let's standardize this so we are not worrying about your reaction time.

Treat it like any other reload drill, you are concerned with the "Split" between shots, which will tell you how quick your reload was.

and if you are shooting stage 3 string 1 in 8, you are SSSSSSSSSMOKIN'

Wow. I'd be hard pressed to do that with a speed load.

[Jane]

On his IDPA DVD, Matt Burkett does string 1 of stage 3 in 8.38 seconds.

His total points down for all strings of stage 3 is down 9.

Of course, he's chatting with the camera all the time he's shooting the classifier. (Final score 64.67)

BTW, there's also a tac load on string 2 of stage 3. Burkett's time for that string is 10.42.

[Gregg K]

On string one of stage 3 do a reload with retention.

On string two of stage 3 do a tactical reload, you can stow the mag while running to the barrel.

You can make it into master with 12 sec. runs on string one and two so long as it's pretty much zero down and you did the first two stages well.

[dirtypool40]

Yeah, that seems more do-able for mortals...

Also remember the load on Stage 3 / String 1 is from a 20y to a 20y. Let's get a normal standard for a 10y -0 to -0 load.

I can remember "back in the day" shooting string 3 pretty clean, in like 12, 12, 6 (cinch 6 -0's to finish as clean as possible) when I was just scraping along the expert / master border.

Stages 1&2 had to be -0, mid 20's (?) for each. (actually I was high 20's, and anything sub 30 "all in" was great)

Save your downs for the "long range" stuf on #3. Esp String #1.

Figure if you went 30 seconds, 30, 30 you'd be right at 90 seconds which is right around "M" depending on gear. I haven't shot the classifier in years, especially with gear I know and practice with, and ESPECIALLY after some dry fire to slick up the type of loads you need for that game.

When things settle down it might be a fun little work up; to get really tuned up, sighted in and see what I could do with a good ESP set up. Hmm.

Back to topic, I remember writing an email to Bill W and the cartel members in Late 97 / early 98 asking for some clarification / evolution. As you can guess I'm still waiting for a response. But in my question I asked about the reload and said that the upper level Ex/Ma shooters at our club were doing TL / RWR in 3-4 secs per the timer. So I think a real money, match day 3 sec would still be ok.

Edited April 19, 2007 by dirtypool40

[oregonshooter]

On string one of stage 3 do a reload with retention.

On string two of stage 3 do a tactical reload, you can stow the mag while running to the barrel.

You can make it into master with 12 sec. runs on string one and two so long as it's pretty much zero down and you did the first two stages well.

So a TACITCAL LOAD is not a "tac-load" but either or "tac-load" / "RwR?" I could not find TACTICAL LOAD defined in the rulebook.

Thanks everyone for the time estimates!

PS. Found this on pg 41 "Tactical Reloads and Reloads with Retention are interchangeable."

Edited April 19, 2007 by oregonshooter

[Crusher]

Remember too that getting from the barricade to the barrel (and set-up) can eat up some time ..............so I recomend a knee slide into the position. Hurts like hell, but it can shave a few seconds off, if you run like the wind and go to both knees and slide that last 3-4 feet right into position.

As far as retention reloads, hitting 2.5 with a retention on a 20yd tgt (shot to shot) is great, below 2.5 is smoking.

[kdmoore]

I remember Daniel Horner doing that stuff ... guess if you weigh 115 lbs and have 15 year old knees ....

What a difference a couple of decades makes .... Ok, it's been even longer than that

[oregonshooter]

My knee slide days are long over. I have a hard enough time getting them to "stay in" just kneeling, let alone power sliding.

Gonna order the CED7000 for my birthday gift and try getting those RwR times down. Thanks for the benchmarks!

[Duane Thomas]

On string one of stage 3 do a reload with retention.

On string two of stage 3 do a tactical reload, you can stow the mag while running to the barrel.

I was really curious what time difference it would make between doing a tac-load and doing a RWR on Stage 3, String 2. So I did it, over and over again, and timed myself. I found I was consistently half a second faster with the tac-load. BUT - and this is a biggie - not to sound like I'm not the smartest, most squared away guy on Earth - when I have to switch between a RWR on String 1 and a tac-load on String 2, I tend to mess up. I start to do a RWR on String 2, realize I'm not doing it the "right" way, fumble. It was just a total loser. I decided, for myself, to just simplify my game plan and do a RWR on both strings. YMMV.

[Jim Watson]

Before the 2005 rule changes, the Tac Load and the RWR were separate procedures and the Tac Load could be specified in the CoF. Never heard of an RWR being specified, though. They are now considered equivalent and you can do whichever suits you.

I thought the RWR was less fumble prone, but standardized on the Tac Load so I did not have to learn two sleight of hand tricks. Now that the reloads are equivalent, I am slooowly converting to RWR because I drop things less that way. But I still can get in a rush and find myself doing a Tac Load out of old habit.

[kdmoore]

to just simplify my game plan and do a RWR on both strings. YMMV.

That's the way I've approached it, half second is pretty standard I'd guess. I just decide to give it (.5 second) away in the name of simplicity.

Now that the reloads are equivalent, I am slooowly converting to RWR because I drop things less that way.

I think if I ever standardized on a single stack gun (I shoot MOSTLY double stacks) that the Tac Reload would be moore doable, easier between the fingers = less likely to drop.

[dirtypool40]

I get lost in all the RWR vs. TL discussions, and I'm clearly not as hip as I once was on current IDPA hot liks, but...

When I was a youngin' and trying to learn IDPA a master in front of me did the "switch at the gun load" in a match, fumbled it up and stuck the partial back in the gun. Yes, he ran it dry.

As a result, I still think getting that partial stowed and grabbing a full one is more fumble proof, just a different reason.

[Duane Thomas]

I think if I ever standardized on a single stack gun (I shoot MOSTLY double stacks) that the Tac Reload would be moore doable, easier between the fingers = less likely to drop.

Actually the RWR is innately less fumble-prone because there's never a time when you have to juggle two magazines in your hand. Simply pop the mag in the gun out into your hand, put it away, thereafter just do a speedload.

Not that those of us who've practiced the tac-load intensively can't pull it off fast and smoothly. We can. But it still requires more dexterity to pull off than the RWR.

[Crusher]

I get lost in all the RWR vs. TL discussions, and I'm clearly not as hip as I once was on current IDPA hot liks, but...

Yea and with your recent rants (which I luv BTW) you ain't making no brownie points with the mall ninjas/tacti cartel either so an " honorary" title of "hip dude" is out too. "The eyes are watchin"

Muhaaaaa!

[Duane Thomas]

Yea and with your recent rants

"Rants"? Moi? Whatever do you mean?

[Jim Taylor]

Yeah, that seems more do-able for mortals...

Also remember the load on Stage 3 / String 1 is from a 20y to a 20y. Let's get a normal standard for a 10y -0 to -0 load.

I can remember "back in the day" shooting string 3 pretty clean, in like 12, 12, 6 (cinch 6 -0's to finish as clean as possible) when I was just scraping along the expert / master border.

Stages 1&2 had to be -0, mid 20's (?) for each. (actually I was high 20's, and anything sub 30 "all in" was great)

Save your downs for the "long range" stuf on #3. Esp String #1.

Figure if you went 30 seconds, 30, 30 you'd be right at 90 seconds which is right around "M" depending on gear. I haven't shot the classifier in years, especially with gear I know and practice with, and ESPECIALLY after some dry fire to slick up the type of loads you need for that game.

When things settle down it might be a fun little work up; to get really tuned up, sighted in and see what I could do with a good ESP set up. Hmm.

Back to topic, I remember writing an email to Bill W and the cartel members in Late 97 / early 98 asking for some clarification / evolution. As you can guess I'm still waiting for a response. But in my question I asked about the reload and said that the upper level Ex/Ma shooters at our club were doing TL / RWR in 3-4 secs per the timer. So I think a real money, match day 3 sec would still be ok.

DP

For RWR at 10 yds. Shot to shot (both zero down), 2.3 seconds. I can do sub 2 but tend to push 2nd shot up and right.

TRL are slower by about .4 second. However, TRL are faster if you have a few steps to stow the mag. I use RWR on strings 1 and 2 of stage 3 of the Classifier just to keep it simple.

You are right on the money with score projections. I look at 24-26 seconds down zero on Stage 1, 20-24 seconds total score on Stage 2, and about 35 seconds total score on Stage 3. I try to clean stages 1 and 2, then shoot about 6-9 pts down on stage 3. Either with a 1911 or a Glock 17 (blinged). Just remember I am 58 yrs old with all the attendant aches and pains. You youngsters should smoke this.

As long as you are looking for standards, I measured shot to shot slide lock reloads with both shots zero down in 1.7 (90% reliability) at 7 or 10 yds (distance did not matter for me).

Best regards,

Jim Taylor