Sti 2011 Frame W/ Commander Slide?

[GlockSpeed31]

Wondering if you could take a STI / SV frame and stick a Commander sized top half on it? I have a single stack 40 that I thought I might pick up a 2011 frame and have a Limited gun.

Thanks in advance,

GlockSpeed31

[MasterLefty]

The shorty open guns are running gov length slide cut to commander length. We had a competitor at today's match running limited with a STI frame with a commander length top end. (I don't know if it was a true commander slide or a gov cut back, however it seemed to be running good.)

My modified is an officers model slide on an S_I frame, and it ran fantastic today. I beat all of the open shooters and I was minor.

FWIW

Kenny

[HSMITH]

The frame is easily modified to true commander stroke.

[chuckbradley]

Howard, I have been thinking about doing a carry gun on a STI frame but i want to do it in 40 with an commander or officers 3.9" barrel. How would you do it or what parts would you use ? Do you know a barrel maker who does one for this application? I also want to mill the sight right into the top of the slide. Any opinions?

[HSMITH]

Chuck, the honest answer is I wouldn't go any shorter than a Commander. I don't believe in the guns shorter than 4.25", timing is SUPER critical when you get shorter than that and the magazines have to be absolutely perfect for reliability. The extra .35" of slide makes a difference as I am sure you know. There are just too many opportunities for things to go wrong when you get shorter than a Commander.

Personally? It would be 4.25". STI standard frame, and the normal small parts I buy. I would take an ounce or so out of the frame to cut weight. If I have to carry it I am using a bushing barrel and a full or nearly full weight slide, and would probably end up taking what I could find in stock from a good name for that barrel with a C/P ramp even if I had to shorten it. For milled in fixed sights with no snag and good picture I don't think you can do any better than the Heinie race cut sights. Front sight would have to be fit to height for the load you like, but that isn't a big deal either. If you wanted night sights it would get a little more complicated. Putting a Bo-Mar on the back and a tritium front would solve all of the potential problems, and I don't mind carrying a Bo-Mar sighted gun at all.

I built a similar gun on a Para frame years ago, if I had done it on an alloy frame I would still have it. Full of ammo they get pretty heavy pretty fast. If I did it again for myself I would look long and hard at 9x23 and Super too.

[Josh Biondi]

Chuck, the honest answer is I wouldn't go any shorter than a Commander. I don't believe in the guns shorter than 4.25", timing is SUPER critical when you get shorter than that and the magazines have to be absolutely perfect for reliability. The extra .35" of slide makes a difference as I am sure you know. There are just too many opportunities for things to go wrong when you get shorter than a Commander.

Personally? It would be 4.25". STI standard frame, and the normal small parts I buy. I would take an ounce or so out of the frame to cut weight. If I have to carry it I am using a bushing barrel and a full or nearly full weight slide, and would probably end up taking what I could find in stock from a good name for that barrel with a C/P ramp even if I had to shorten it. For milled in fixed sights with no snag and good picture I don't think you can do any better than the Heinie race cut sights. Front sight would have to be fit to height for the load you like, but that isn't a big deal either. If you wanted night sights it would get a little more complicated. Putting a Bo-Mar on the back and a tritium front would solve all of the potential problems, and I don't mind carrying a Bo-Mar sighted gun at all.

I built a similar gun on a Para frame years ago, if I had done it on an alloy frame I would still have it. Full of ammo they get pretty heavy pretty fast. If I did it again for myself I would look long and hard at 9x23 and Super too.

I agree with you! I dont think that lesser than 4.25" will help so much.

[Singlestack]

Wondering if you could take a STI / SV frame and stick a Commander sized top half on it? I have a single stack 40 that I thought I might pick up a 2011 frame and have a Limited gun.

Thanks in advance,

GlockSpeed31

Not without cutting the frame.

[Wakal]

Benny Hill put together a carry gun for me a few years ago. STI Commander slide on a STI frame, bushing ramped 9 by 23 barrel...nice...

Alex

[Radical Precision Designs]

Before y'all go chomping on that Government length slide, and bring it to Commander length, (which I love to do all the time!) there are a few issues to consider:

First is your recoil spring. Most people will opt for a "bull" barrel. So, after cutting the slide, both the (standard) Government and Commander length reverse plugs will be too long. This is not a problem with Open guns, but a nuisance with standard guns. Now back with the recoil spring: the original government length spring and most commander springs will be too long also when collapsed within the new "length/sized" recoil spring plug. So what spring length do you use? A cut down version? Actually an original "Officer's Model" spring will work best, because of its usually wider spacing between coils which results in a smaller area needed when fully collapsed. You can not allow coil "bind" or contact during cycling for several reasons, all of them very bad. A regular "bushing barrel is easier, but you still need to cut down the bushing and deal with the recoil spring issue.

Most Commander length guns for Open ( when the 'smith is doing his homework) are using a "full 5" Gov. length recoil system) You can not do this in a standard gun set-up. The shorter spring will require a "heavier" overall weight to function properly and maintain a balance between "compressed and battery" poundage requirements. In the long run, the springs will not last as long, and will need replacement sooner, as the "residual/batttery" weight requirements usually will give problems with feeding. For a carry gun or a gun not used extensively this will not be a problem. But it will be for a competition or use intensive gun.

IMHO, this is a job better suited for a "professional" gun designer/'smith to do than for the regular gun tinkerer. A small mistake can be costly.

[GlockSpeed31]

So, basically, I need to cut on a Gov't sized frame to get my Commander top half to work properly? Would that be cutting down the length on the dust cover or somewhere else? I'm looking for a Limited gun setup, not an open gun.

Thanks,

[Radical Precision Designs]

So, basically, I need to cut on a Gov't sized frame to get my Commander top half to work properly? Would that be cutting down the length on the dust cover or somewhere else? I'm looking for a Limited gun setup, not an open gun.

Thanks,

Read the above again, then translate "standard/government" to mean: Limited. Or, as some call it, Government/Limited= 5" slide/barrel, and Commander(stil Limited)= 4.25" slide/barrel.

If you put a Standard/Government/Limited slide next to a Commander (original Colt) slide, "upside down" and matching the back, you will notice that the dust cover of the Commander is built further back than the Government. This is what limits the cycling distance of the slide and determines the size of the recoil spring plug. But since you are cutting from the front of the (government) slide, the resulting left over "dust cover size" will be smaller than the normal Commander dust cover.

In the Open gun, since the compensator goes in front of the muzzle, and there is ample length under it, a suitable channel can be cut under the comp to acomodate a "full length= 5"_ recoil system including the full lenght plug, guide and spring. In the Limited gun you wouldn't want the extra "appendage" sticking in front of your muzzle in order to keep the original recoil system.

You would indeed gain the feeding and extracting reliability that is associated with the larger cycling distance of the Government sized guns, as opposed with the "notorious" reputation of the shorter guns.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Radical Precision Designs

[Dave Sample]

The Commander lower end is cut differently to accommodate the shorter slide travel. It is .100 back where the recoil spring guide rod is and the dust cover is shorter.

It is a job for a skilled smith and not an easy one.

Why not just get a Commander sized gun?

[dirtypool40]

Read the above again, then translate "standard/government" to mean: Limited. Or, as some call it, Government/Limited= 5" slide/barrel, and Commander(stil Limited)= 4.25" slide/barrel.

If you put a Standard/Government/Limited slide next to a Commander (original Colt) slide, "upside down" and matching the back, you will notice that the dust cover of the Commander is built further back than the Government. This is what limits the cycling distance of the slide and determines the size of the recoil spring plug. But since you are cutting from the front of the (government) slide, the resulting left over "dust cover size" will be smaller than the normal Commander dust cover.

In the Open gun, since the compensator goes in front of the muzzle, and there is ample length under it, a suitable channel can be cut under the comp to acomodate a "full length= 5"_ recoil system including the full lenght plug, guide and spring. In the Limited gun you wouldn't want the extra "appendage" sticking in front of your muzzle in order to keep the original recoil system.

You would indeed gain the feeding and extracting reliability that is associated with the larger cycling distance of the Government sized guns, as opposed with the "notorious" reputation of the shorter guns.

I am so stoked this guy is building me a gun now!!!

[GlockSpeed31]

The Commander lower end is cut differently to accommodate the shorter slide travel. It is .100 back where the recoil spring guide rod is and the dust cover is shorter.

It is a job for a skilled smith and not an easy one.

Why not just get a Commander sized gun?

Does STI or SV offer a Commander frame? Just playing with an idea, as I stated in the original post, I have a Commander Single Stack that I would like to turn into a fat gun. But if it is going to take a lot of work doing such, I might just sell the Single Stack and buy a used STI limited gun.

Thanks for all of the info guys.

[chuckbradley]

For your intended use I suggest selling the commander and buying a used (or new ) STI.

Can any of you other guys put together a parts list of what you would use to build a short gun on an STI frame. The parts other than std 1911 parts that is and any modifications it would need.

[J.L. Hardy]

Guys,

There is more difference in a commander frame than just the dust cover. And SV used to offer a commander frame, may still do if you can get one, and STI does not. To use Sti Frames they must be modified to commander specs. STI's commander length guns use a shortened govt slide and a special recoilmaster for springs.

[chuckbradley]

Guys,

There is more difference in a commander frame than just the dust cover. And SV used to offer a commander frame, may still do if you can get one, and STI does not. To use Sti Frames they must be modified to commander specs. STI's commander length guns use a shortened govt slide and a special recoilmaster for springs.

Joey, so you saying I can use a std sti frame with a cut down government slide and a shorter recoilmaster? Whose barrel would you use? cant be a bushing since a cut down 5" slide would be missing the bushing cut. STI is offering a 3.4" gun now also in single stack. I would like to figure out how to make this work on an STI wide frame. But in 40 cal. I also want to mill the sight sinto the slide so no sights, just ribs on top. Looking to build a combat carry gun, not a 50 yard standards gun.

Edited April 17, 2007 by chuckbradley

[Dave Sample]

The barrel lower lugs are cut differently than a five or six inch barrel.

[J.L. Hardy]

Dave,

You are correct. If you don't use a commander specific barrel you generally have to modify the guide rod head so that there is no contact when the barrel comes out of battery.

[Flexmoney]

(slight drift)

I also want to mill the sight into the slide so no sights, just ribs on top. Looking to build a combat carry gun, not a 50 yard standards gun.

Chuck,

With the same (carry gun) goal in mind, I can't seem to get to a place where the milled rib works for me. My current thinking is that the holster would allow for the sights. And, going with a smooth ramped front (or even a half-a-nickle) style ought to negate snagging ?

I've done a bit of shooting without sights on the gun. So I am comfortable enough with that. I find I really do like having that front sight to stick right into the target (even if I shoot out of the notch and don't use the rear sight).

I'd be interested in hearing you thought process.

[GlockSpeed31]

Ok guys, thanks for the info, but we keep drifting away from the stated topic. Please start your own thread if it has to do with something different than the topic.

[MasterLefty]

The photo below is of the different barrels: Officer's, Commander (Trusight), and Govt.

Is the area circled in yellow where the barrel is cut different?? That is the only difference I can find.

This photo shows the differences between the three corresponding slides.

The only difference is the Officer's slide for the back of the reverse plug.

The frames on all three guns are the same.

Kenny

Edited April 17, 2007 by MasterLefty

[Flexmoney]

Ok guys, thanks for the info, but we keep drifting away from the stated topic. Please start your own thread if it has to do with something different than the topic.

Opps...sorry about that. I was thinking Chuck started this thread. (If Chuck responds to my questions, I'll split it out into a seperate thread.)

[gans]

Ok guys, thanks for the info, but we keep drifting away from the stated topic. Please start your own thread if it has to do with something different than the topic.

Hello Michael,

The question that you asked can be confusing. Maybe I can help some.

First, a STI frame will have oversize rails on it and it may take some machining to get the slide on. You will not know until you get one and take some measurements.

As far as a Commander slide on a Government frame. If you cycle the slide rearwards until it hits the frame, you will find that the slide stop may not be able to engage the corresponding notch in the slide. You will not know for sure until you try it since there are tollerance that can vary this. 1-If it does, you are good to go. 2-If it almost does, but not quite- you can grind the slide stop a little shorter, grind the notch in the slide a little bit bigger, and turn head of the guide rod a little until you get it to work. 3-If it isn't very close, you will need to do what Colt does to the Commander frame. They machine the rear of the dust shield rearwards about .100". That lets the slide move rearwards enough so that the slide stop will be able to engage the notch in the slide. That also give the slide a longer cycling distance to absorb the recoil. That gives a softer felt recoil. Not as long and soft as the Gov't though. You will need to use the Commander length recoil spring system here.

If you use one of the short STI slides, they will work on the frame as is since they machine the slide differently than the short Colt slides. They offer barrels that are the correct length for whatever length slide you choose. However, you will need to get the matching recoil spring setup to match whatever lenth slide and barrel that you choose. Each different length slide/barrel requires it own matching recoil spring system.

If you are going to buy a short STI slide, make sure that you can get the correct barrel for it. They discontinue some models. I just got done building a 3.9" for a customer. STI could not supply the barrel for it. I had to cut down a longer barrel and sleeve it to make it work. You don't want to go through that.

In conclusion, the shorter slides require their own matching recoil system. The cycling is shorter and the felt recoil will be more. That is a big reason why most will use the full size slide/frame setup and not the short ones.

I hope that this helps you some and doesn't just confuse you more. I am sure that if I forgot something or made a mistake, someone will correct me.

Good Luck,

Gary

[chuckbradley]

Ok guys, thanks for the info, but we keep drifting away from the stated topic. Please start your own thread if it has to do with something different than the topic.

Sorry, I thought it was a good thread in that we are trying to learn the inner workings and differences of the different length guns. Which in the long run would give you a lot better understanding of what you can and cant do.

I will ask Flex to pull all my posts into another thread.