Match Dq Opinions

[BBunin]

I understand we are all responsible for our own weapons but let me give you a description of what hapened to my buddy at a Major IDPA match.

Match was total darkness and I mean total, bang bang bang.... finished,,, From RO "Turn Off and stow Light",, (to keep shooters from waving whitelight around other shooters eyes and minimize the fumble factor with hand held light. From RO "Unload and show clear" shooter holds gun to side with hand holding slide back. Ro has the only light a fairly small single LED one. from RO, "slide forward hammer down" BANG!!! From RO "That's a Match DQ for AD."

The ruling wasnt protested to match director.

I guess I would have a problem with turning off my light until I was sure the gun was clear.

Bruce

Since you can't use weaponlights, your off hand is holding the light.

Ergo, you must stow it to UASC

[kdmoore]

At an IDPA match, the Safety Officer is ultimately responsible to see that the shooter has actually unloaded his gun. In this case, the SO made an error and the gun went bang. Under IDPA rules, the SO made the error, not the shooter. The shooter should not have been DQ'd unless there were other mitigating factors.

I understand your sentiments, it isn't written that clearly in the IDPA manual.

"Safety Officer (SO) Responsibilities.

1. Focus on the shooter’s firing hand and gun.

2. Remember that the shooter is always given the benefit of any doubt.

3. Run contestants through a course of fire safely and smoothly so that the shooter may enjoy the shooting experience.

4. Treat the shooter with courtesy and respect.

5. Answer all questions regarding the CoF.

6. Control all details of the CoF.

7. Define all muzzle safe points as directed by the CoF and range.

8. SO should generally stand about three (3) feet to the side and three (3) feet to the rear of the shooter. The safety officer must be aware of his position as the competitor reholsters.

9. The SO should be on the gun hand side of the shooter. The gun-hand side changes depending on CoF requirements.

10. SO should make sure they stay with the shooter, but not in the shooter’s way."

For the contestant

"Shooter Responsibilities.

1. ALWAYS follow the four laws of gun safety.

2. ALWAYS be conscious of muzzle direction.

3. Refrain from having finger in the trigger guard when not actually engaging targets.

4. Exhibit safe gun handling at all times.

5. Follow the rules in this book and any match-specific or range-specific rules.

6. Acquire and use IDPA legal equipment.

7. Obtain a valid classification and maintain it by shooting the classifier at least once every twelve (12) months (except master class shooters).

8. Assist in taping targets and picking up brass.

9. Be ready to shoot when called to the line (i.e., have appropriate ammo, concealment garment, etc.).

10. Be courteous and respectful to the match officials and other shooters.

11. In addition, have fun, socialize, learn and improve your gun handling and shooting skills."

Interestingly, the shooter broke none of the 4 universal safety rules printed in the manual.

Not saying you are right or wrong, just that it isn't black and white.

Edited April 4, 2007 by kdmoore

[COF]

Does the rulebook spell it out in black and white that the SO is responsible for ensuring the weapon is clear? Not in those words, BUT we teach SO's that their primary duty is SAFETY, not handing out procedurals, not counting rounds, but SAFETY. Here the SO failed to follow that dictum.

As a competitor I would have insisted on a light bright enough to ensure both I and the SO could verify the chamber was clear. In this case the SO and the shooter failed in their duties to ensure the chamber was clear. It was not a DQ offense unless the shooter did something else that met the criteria for DQ.

Jerry

[freeidaho]

At an IDPA match, the Safety Officer is ultimately responsible to see that the shooter has actually unloaded his gun. In this case, the SO made an error and the gun went bang. Under IDPA rules, the SO made the error, not the shooter. The shooter should not have been DQ'd unless there were other mitigating factors.

The rules for USPSA match are different; the shooter (NOT the Range Officer) is responsible for determining that his gun is unloaded, regardless of what the RO states during the unload sequence. If the same thing had happened at a USPSA match, the shooter would have been clearly DQ'd.

Which ever of the two, shooter or SO, had his finger on the trigger at the time of the ND, is the responsible party. When the trigger is pulled, the pullee is responsible. How can it be any other way?

Lots of times the shooter gets way ahead of the SO, and pulls the trigger, before the slide forward command is even given.

Ken Reed

[Mike Wood]

From RO "Unload and show clear" shooter holds gun to side with hand holding slide back. Ro has the only light a fairly small single LED one. from RO, "slide forward hammer down" BANG!!! From RO "That's a Match DQ for AD."

The ruling wasnt protested to match director.

I'd like to clear a few things up here. I was there and worked as an RO at that particular match although not I'm not the RO in question. I know the incident spoken about and the people involved so I feel qualified to "shed some light" on this, no pun intended.

1. Joe is correct on most but not all counts. The RO's words to the shooter were actually more along the lines of "Damn **** I think that might be a DQ" and after getting him unloaded (completely) turned around to the MD who happened to be standing not far behind them and wanting to know what happened explained it to him, the MD made the call right then and there. It is a RANGE rule to DQ the shooter for an AD.

2. Neither the shooter or the RO are novices by any stretch. In fact the shooter (a staff member) has been competing for many years and has held executive office in at least one competition club, and has recently completed the IDPA RSO course. He just messed up that's all. He took it like a gentleman and did not protest it because he shoots at that club a lot and knows the rules. In fact he came back and worked it the very next day in true sportsmanlike fashion. He may have had some luck if he protested the call but I doubt it.

3. The RO in question I will admit is one of my best buds. . But I promise you I am giving this to you unbiased. The last thing he wanted to do was DQ anyone. The MD made the call (also not mentioned) because he was right there and that's all there it to it.

4. I think it's commendable that several people quoted the rules etc. It shows that shooters/RO's know the rules & where to find them. It's true the shooter did not strike the floor 6' or closer than the firing line. But he did hit a lot of stuff downrange possibly even the wall- because the gun was pointed through a "window" when it fired and was at enough of an angle to hit the wall. (also not mentioned)

[it might also bear mentioning that this was an indoor match and the stages are set up in a confined area which means some stages are one on top of another. When a shot is fired helter skelter though some stages like that with NO direction (other than downrange) all kinds of things could get hit that weren't planned for in the set up.]

What the shooter did do was FAIL to UNLOAD and show clear which can be interpeted as an example of unsafe gun handling and grounds for a DQ per IDPA rules- S5 Page 7, which states "after completeing any COF the shooter must unload, show clear & re-holster before turning uprange or leaving the firing line". I don't think firing a shot off is what they had in mind for an unload.

This is an extremely hard match to RO and everyone did a fine job. Most of the shooter's comments reflect that year after year.

In summary: The shooter was commanded to unload & show clear, he racked the slide without dropping the mag, the RO saw the empty chamber but he failed to notice that the shooter had NOT dropped the mag, another round got chambered and HAMMER DOWN went BANG instead of click. Ted Murphy hit the nail on the head with his comment about stowing the flashlight etc. On this stage a simulated "cast" had to be removed from the shooters arm (by the scorekeeper) before he could be unloaded, furthur complicating things for the shooter and the RO.

In my NSHO most of blame should be shouldered by the shooter who was in possession/control of the weopon and did NOT do what he was told to do. There is no "drop the mag" command in IDPA it's "UNLOAD" (& show clear). I agree the RO should have caught it even though he was not holding the gun. But that doesn't discount the shooter's responsibility.

MW

[freeidaho]

Thank you ! ! !

Ken Reed

[kdmoore]

Hmmm, another free lesson for me, tyvm.

In the daylight it's pretty obvious that a mag hasn't been removed. And I do see occasional (new)shooters forget to remove the mag in the daylight/needing a reminder. Definitely need to remember to check the status of the "unload" command.

[kevin c]

Seems like a vision sparing red light carried by the SO would be in order here.

[Luis Leon]

I think turning on the lights is in order, before clearing the gun, if this was an indoor scenario. Outdoors things are very different. I shoot at club where we are allowed to holster hot, so we don't have the problem of someone inadvertantly putting a shot into the berm, or the ground. And we do shoot alot of night and low-light scenarios.

I don't understand the need to clear the weapon after a COF is shot. Every gun is always treated as if its loaded, right? Just apply the safety, decocker or just holster if its a Glock or XD and you are done. You have no business touching your piece again until its your turn at the line at the next stage. My belief is that the show clear, hammer down procedure actually increases the chance of DQs, and accidental discharges. These are just my opinions.

regards,

Luis Leon

[Shawn Knight]

My hat cam video of a Low Light stage. The Lights on command before the UASC command is illustrated here.

Soory about the Quality but it is low light.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1560150224389602951

Edited April 6, 2007 by theknightoflight

[Tom Freeman]

I don't know why your calling him a BONEHEAD Freeman. I'm not even going to comment on the "wall to wall" comment

The SO did a boneheaded thing, as did the shooter. DQ-ing the shooter was not a boneheaded thing to do, telling him "hammer down" on a hot gun was. We all make mistakes, but this one cost someone a DQ. Luckily thats all that happened.

All in all the guy that pulled the trigger is the one 100% responsible, but this SO did not do him any favors.

[CSEMARTIN]

If someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night, you might not have more than a few seconds to decide whether or not someone has earned a bullet hole. The jury will have an endless supply of time to decide if what you did was appropriate.

The Match Director was there and made a decision on the spot. How long have we been discussing this? Surely, everyone can agree that the IDPA rulebook is ambiguous in certain areas. If a Match Director saw something that he/she thought was dangerous, who cares what the rulebook says!

It sounds to me like the MD saw some dangerous gun handling, and it was time to invite the shooter to pack up his shit and grab a box of pasters.....

[Mike Wood]

Seems like a vision sparing red light carried by the SO would be in order here.

That's what we had Kevin. I tend to agree with what Knighttoflight's video shows. Lights on when UASC. Even using the shooter's light as I was worked quite well. I didn't feel the red light was enough. The next time I work one of these matches I am going to push hard for lights on.

[Shawn Knight]

I used my own light to see for myself that everything was clear. Something every shooter should do on their own. Verify your own gun is clear before you let someone else do it.

[CSEMARTIN]

I didn't feel the red light was enough. The next time I work one of these matches I am going to push hard for lights on.

Maybe the shooter thought he saw an empty chamber.

Edited April 7, 2007 by CSEMARTIN

[Buzzdraw]

Many of you have a copy of the Official IDPA "How To Run A Match" video. Key it up to 31:00 and let it run a minute or two. Hack says clearly that it is the SO's reponsibility to determine if the gun is really unloaded.

What happened at the particular match is over with and cannot be changed.

[CSEMARTIN]

What happened at the particular match is over with and cannot be changed.

We should still try to learn something from all of this.

[bruce282]

I guess I would have a problem with turning off my light until I was sure the gun was clear.

Bruce

Since you can't use weaponlights, your off hand is holding the light.

Ergo, you must stow it to UASC

Not true. With my light held between ring and middle finger I remove the magazine and put it in my pocket, then pull the slide back, lock it open and point my light into the chamber, then release the slide, pull the trigger and holster. I stow my light after confirming my hits on the targets. One of the other shooters in our match put the light in his mouth to UASC.

Bruce

[Mike Wood]

Not true. With my light held between ring and middle finger I remove the magazine and put it in my pocket, then pull the slide back, lock it open and point my light into the chamber, then release the slide, pull the trigger and holster. I stow my light after confirming my hits on the targets. One of the other shooters in our match put the light in his mouth to UASC.

Bruce

Due to the layout & timeframes of this match the shooter has to come off the line immediately after UASC so the next shooter can shoot. You get to check your targets with a paster gun in your hand when the squad of 5 is finished shooting. And like I said the only light that could be on was the RO's red light.

Edited April 9, 2007 by Mike Wood

[Mike Wood]

I don't understand the need to clear the weapon after a COF is shot. Every gun is always treated as if its loaded, right? Just apply the safety, decocker or just holster if its a Glock or XD and you are done. You have no business touching your piece again until its your turn at the line at the next stage. My belief is that the show clear, hammer down procedure actually increases the chance of DQs, and accidental discharges. These are just my opinions.

regards,

Luis Leon

Luis, you may very will be right but most ranges are cold ranges and I've personally never shot a match on a hot range. I guess you'd still only be able to handle/load your gun under the command of the RO right? Anybody else shot on a hot range? How many places run like that? What is the protocol? Do you load for the next stage instead of UASC?

This kind of a thing is a complete rarity at this club and I don't believe it would have happened even with the same people, "cast" on his arm etc. if darkness was taken out of the equation.

MW

[CSEMARTIN]

And like I said the only light that could be on was the RO's red light.

I wish I could have been there to see how all of this went down.

Mike, are you saying that the shooters were not allowed to use their flashlights to verify an empty chamber? The lights were purposefully left off, and the only light being used, which you stated before wasn't enough, were the RO's red lights? Were the lights left off in an effort to save time? Why couldn't the shooters use their lights to UASC? Why not just turn on the lights when the shooters were done shooting?

Edited April 9, 2007 by CSEMARTIN

[freeidaho]

And like I said the only light that could be on was the RO's red light.

It is very simple for the shooter to verify an empty mag well and a loaded or unloaded chamber, in total darkness. The technique is taught in many first level self defense classes.

Ken Reed

[Shawn Knight]

IDPA Is not Tactical training. It is a game.

I think Buzzdraw said it best.

Many of you have a copy of the Official IDPA "How To Run A Match" video. Key it up to 31:00 and let it run a minute or two. Hack says clearly that it is the SO's reponsibility to determine if the gun is really unloaded.

Still no matter what the COF or the MD calls for you should always verify your own pistol. I think this is a case of MD's and SO's taking their job a little too seriously. They are not tactical instructors.

[Scott R]

Due to the layout & timeframes of this match the shooter has to come off the line immediately after UASC so the next shooter can shoot. You get to check your targets with a paster gun in your hand when the squad of 5 is finished shooting. And like I said the only light that could be on was the RO's red light.

Sounds like in the interest of time the match officials decided to put safety on the back burner. If the shooter or SO could not see whether the gun was unloaded then clearly there was not enough light used. "I'm afraid I'll loose my night vision" is not a good excuse for ignoring safety.

[Luis Leon]

Mike,

I know that hot ranges are a rarity as the example I posted happens at only one club. Every other match I've been to has cold range rules. At this club it typically goes like this, if I'm done shooting the COF, and did not go to slide lock, I simply insert a new magazine, and holster my weapon (under the RO's supervision of course). Now, I'm back to 10 +1. I don't touch my weapon again, until on the line at the next COF. For me, the "slide back, show clear, slide forward, hammer down" seem unnecessary, if you have your rudimentary gun-handling skills down, you should be able to holster a hot weapon. Heck, I bet a lot of you are hot right now, and no one is getting hurt.

Anytime we have low- no-light COFs, the overhead lights ARE turned on before, the shooter holsters his weapon. If its an outdoor shoot, there are multiple lights handy to illuminate the situation if needed. Ultimately, the shooter is always responsible for the state of his gun.

regards,

Luis Leon