Merlin Orr Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Being the slow old fumble thumb I am I can do about one shell loading a second with a Bennelli. Maybe a little faster..... Some of my friends can do around 2 shells per second...WOW.. But - I can load Mark's (Superfly) Sagia 15 round mag in two or three seconds. If Sagia or similar guns are allowed in Tactical EVERY other shotgun is history - ancient history at that. .02...at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I can build a stage that the saga people would shoot themselves after but the benelli group would love it. If saga's are allowed, watch for BETTER stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 And I can build "better" stages that would have Geezer FumbleFingers And His Antique Shotgun sprawled on the ground in a fetal position, twitching one eye, and sobbing. Perhaps 'tis better to make straight up stages and let the shooter decide One thing that struck me, as I re-read this thread, is the concept that the "Saiga is the only game" and that is a bad thing. After all, no one seems to be whining that the AR platform in 5.56 is far and away the "only game" in 3-gun... There are other mag-fed shotguns out there (I shoot something else, even though I have a brace of rather nice Saigas), but until recently the supply of 10-round magazines depended on a few crazy yabbos and their ability (or willingness) to use a soldering iron or a welding rig. However, now there are $300 reliable shotguns and a nigh-endless (so far) supply of reasonably priced 10-round magazines. These are, from an equipment standpoint, the best of times. Even those old-OLD time geezers who play Cowboy Action Dress-up are reconsidering their shotgun rules, since historical fact AND technology are catching up with them. We only have to deal with technology...and 10-round (or better) mag fed shotguns have been commercially available since the late 1980's Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Hey alex, I resemble that remark. O.K. where can I buy one with mags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 LOL...I doubt that Cav Arms has shotguns, and http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/ has the best deal going on magazines. Speaking of folks buying new gear, I wonder if Kay and Jerry still have that Saiga 20 I sold them a few years ago... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmfield Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 In the brief history of our sport, Tactical Class shotgun has always been about loading - i.e. how fast you can grab shotgun shells off your person and shove them into your shotgun. While shooting quickly is a necessary skill, it is secondary to loading as we all shoot faster than we can load. Shooting accurately is probably more important than shooting quickly as it can reduce the amount of reloading that you have to do. Even if you can shoot your shotgun very fast, you won't compete unless you have mastered loading. If we were to allow magazine fed shotguns into Tactical Class at this point, we would be making a fundamental change to our game. Regardless of how fast the best in this game can reload with their thumbs, they will certainly be able to reload faster with magazines. What is currently the single most important skill in the Tactical Class shotgun game would dissappear into history. My point here is that this is an important decision and that it should not be made without carefully considering where we want our sport to go. There is certainly a place for magazine fed shotguns in Open Class, and for now at least, I think that is where they should reside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 In the brief history of our sport, Tactical Class shotgun has always been about loading - i.e. how fast you can grab shotgun shells off your person and shove them into your shotgun. While shooting quickly is a necessary skill, it is secondary to loading as we all shoot faster than we can load. Shooting accurately is probably more important than shooting quickly as it can reduce the amount of reloading that you have to do. Even if you can shoot your shotgun very fast, you won't compete unless you have mastered loading.If we were to allow magazine fed shotguns into Tactical Class at this point, we would be making a fundamental change to our game. Regardless of how fast the best in this game can reload with their thumbs, they will certainly be able to reload faster with magazines. What is currently the single most important skill in the Tactical Class shotgun game would dissappear into history. My point here is that this is an important decision and that it should not be made without carefully considering where we want our sport to go. There is certainly a place for magazine fed shotguns in Open Class, and for now at least, I think that is where they should reside. Whats this..?? An intelligent statement? + 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Nothing like an Arms race to whip people into a frenzy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cksh8me Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 Those things are ugly that's reason enough to ban them from competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 Hell, if that were true then quite a few people couldn't play either A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topmaul Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Saiga, require practice, that mag can be a lot to handle for some one not used to it. You have to practice, if you don't think so buy one and try it they are not as easy as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyloks Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 i got to use my new saiga shot gun!! lof, But like i read in this thread by JHGTYRE "THE HOOK and HOPE" method is correct. i do own an AK 47 and the mag. goes easly. This saiga thing with 10 rounds in it is very hard to put in ( i need lots of practice). the mag is so big that it is actualy hard for me to hang onto. Next time i will try to load only 8or 9 rounds and see if it goes in easier. for now it's advantage for me is small but maybe in time with more practice it will be better. jb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 locking the bolt open to reload makes the reloads much easier and more consistent...why fight the gun to put the mag in if you don't have to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Reloading to an open bolt takes time. I realize that this is time well spent but it does add time to the reload. I was hoping to be able to reload to a closed bolt since one of the "features" of the AGP mags is that little extra bit of space in the mag that allows the shells to compress a bit when attempting a closed bolt reload. Unfortunately closed bolt reloads are a major PITA for me. My first "real" trip out with the AGP mags and new buttstock was not all that great. I had multiple jams and whatever choke is welded onto mine is not all that great for shooting at plate racks. The jams may have been caused by leaving the mags loaded for a few weeks and the shells deforming as a result. I took the gun out the day I got the mags and did not have any feeding problems but I only got to shoot for a few minutes. During the longer session I shot the last Friday I had many jams with the shell not going fully into battery. This could well be due to shell deformation. I'll take it out again with some fresh shells to see if the problem goes away. The other big problem is carrying the shells. I know Cav Arms has some mag pouches available if you have a molly compatible vest to attach them to but I don't have such a vest. Mark Buchanan at 3Gun Gear also had some prototype mag pouches but I haven't checked with him to see if he had come up with a good place to carry the mags. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 So here we are in in 2007 with Star Trek only a generation away and we're using tube magazine shotguns when something a bit more modern is available. I thought about shooting Cowboy Action Shooting so I could shoot 3-gun with 100 year old guns...NOT! Make the American gun manufacturers come up with something even better and let's use it! Alex is just into that technology stuff and likes to go fast. Why waste time reloading.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Reloading to an open bolt takes time. I realize that this is time well spent but it does add time to the reload. I was hoping to be able to reload to a closed bolt since one of the "features" of the AGP mags is that little extra bit of space in the mag that allows the shells to compress a bit when attempting a closed bolt reload. Unfortunately closed bolt reloads are a major PITA for me. Even locking the bolt open you should be able to get down to 4-5 seconds shot to shot. My first "real" trip out with the AGP mags and new buttstock was not all that great. I had multiple jams and whatever choke is welded onto mine is not all that great for shooting at plate racks. The jams may have been caused by leaving the mags loaded for a few weeks and the shells deforming as a result. I took the gun out the day I got the mags and did not have any feeding problems but I only got to shoot for a few minutes. During the longer session I shot the last Friday I had many jams with the shell not going fully into battery. This could well be due to shell deformation. I'll take it out again with some fresh shells to see if the problem goes away. I like using the winchester AA Super Sporting Clays or Super Handicap loads in mine. The hulls are thicker and thus more resistant to deforming when stored in the mag for long periods. These shells are also a bit hotter and cycle the gun better in my experience. The other big problem is carrying the shells. I know Cav Arms has some mag pouches available if you have a molly compatible vest to attach them to but I don't have such a vest. Mark Buchanan at 3Gun Gear also had some prototype mag pouches but I haven't checked with him to see if he had come up with a good place to carry the mags.-ld Need a vest, we can help you out with that....or you could use the pouches on a Modular thigh rig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted March 27, 2007 Share Posted March 27, 2007 Reloading to an open bolt takes time. I realize that this is time well spent but it does add time to the reload. I was hoping to be able to reload to a closed bolt since one of the "features" of the AGP mags is that little extra bit of space in the mag that allows the shells to compress a bit when attempting a closed bolt reload. Unfortunately closed bolt reloads are a major PITA for me. Even locking the bolt open you should be able to get down to 4-5 seconds shot to shot. My first "real" trip out with the AGP mags and new buttstock was not all that great. I had multiple jams and whatever choke is welded onto mine is not all that great for shooting at plate racks. The jams may have been caused by leaving the mags loaded for a few weeks and the shells deforming as a result. I took the gun out the day I got the mags and did not have any feeding problems but I only got to shoot for a few minutes. During the longer session I shot the last Friday I had many jams with the shell not going fully into battery. This could well be due to shell deformation. I'll take it out again with some fresh shells to see if the problem goes away. I like using the winchester AA Super Sporting Clays or Super Handicap loads in mine. The hulls are thicker and thus more resistant to deforming when stored in the mag for long periods. These shells are also a bit hotter and cycle the gun better in my experience. The other big problem is carrying the shells. I know Cav Arms has some mag pouches available if you have a molly compatible vest to attach them to but I don't have such a vest. Mark Buchanan at 3Gun Gear also had some prototype mag pouches but I haven't checked with him to see if he had come up with a good place to carry the mags.-ld Need a vest, we can help you out with that....or you could use the pouches on a Modular thigh rig. Yeah I might have to try out a thigh rig. I just don't dig the vest idea. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Detach Mag fed shotguns were at best not a disadvantage compared to tube feds at SMM3G this year, as all the stages were 12 rounds or less (there was one 14 round slug stage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Just wait till you go to a match that REQUIRES that you shoot your shotgun from the prone position.... It is going to happen and soon. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 Just wait till you go to a match that REQUIRES that you shoot your shotgun from the prone position.... It is going to happen and soon.-ld Been there, done that....that's what the 5 rounders are for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 good answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 lol. I forgot about the 5 rounder. Since I only have one I've sort of relegated it to "Barney Mag" status. I've also considered that the 5 rounder would be good when there are intermittent slug targets on a stage. Oh well. This weekend at SMM3G it's going to be all about the tube fed gun for me. Once I get the Saiga running right I might give open a shot. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 Just found this thread, month late to the party. As I read thru, I wondered what would happen if you changed shotgun terms to: Revolver ... when referring to belly fed guns speed loaders ... when referring to speed loaders Pistols ... when referring to DM shotties ... Then all of the references to loading would make sense ... Barring political interference, it's the way of the future. We just need to decide how quickly we want to get there. I imagine in 1911 that there would have been a lot of the same discussions between bottom feeders and round guns! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Saiga, require practice, that mag can be a lot to handle for some one not used to it. You have to practice, if you don't think so buy one and try it they are not as easy as you think. I have shot a few steel matches with a friend who uses a Saiga. I have spent a decent amount of time on practicing my reloads - a lot more than he has on practicing his. Our shooting is pretty close. He trounces me on time each and every time. On a 30 or so round course he beats me by about 10-15 seconds easy. I have to shove about 25 shells into my gun - he has to make 2, tops 3 mag changes. In a 3-gun format with movement and lower round count that advantage would be less signifficant, but it would still be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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