mlmiller1 Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Still noone has explained why this is "good for the sport". Beginners will always be beginners & if we don't bring them along, they will leave. That has nothing to do with what gun they shoot or what gun they are competing against. PERIOD! If you want a beginner division, call it that & let the beginners run whatever they bring. Most folks that have a gun they have shot more than once or twice has had something done to it to make it more user friendly. Even if it is just tape or new sights. Barrettone, are you going to make them shoot in a more advanced class because they have done something to their gun? Sounds like it, but hey, they are new shooters. What about that? If you guys are adamant about making it new guy friendly, open up a division with no classes, & shoot whatever you have. You are only allowed to shoot in this division what...........two times maybe? Or maybe just once because there might be a newer guy that doesn't have as neat a gun as yours, so he might be offended so maybe just shoot the new division once, then you go wherever your gun fits after that. Gee Whiz, maybe that is the answer. Isn't that pretty well what we do now? At our club, we take new folks & hold their hands pretty much. We explain the safety rules & enforce them but most of the other rules are applied loosely. We coach them along, we point out mistakes, we make the first match pretty easy on them. They get the score they shot but it is explained to them & most understand, they are new so they might not win. If they come back next time, great, if not, sorry. As for production, the gate has been open too long & all the cattle have left the barn. On top of that, my particular observation is it's not fair at all to have dbl action/single action pulls not measured for every pull of the trigger. This is a desperate attempt to handicap all DAO guns while opening the door for the dbl/sgl action guns. It sounds like jealousy amongst those that don't like DAO guns is rearing it's head one more time. If you are going to have a minimum pull, every pull should have to meet that number. If not, a trigger pull minimum is only there to handicap certain guns. It doesn't level any playing field. This is of course just my opinion. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I notice a disparity in attitudes between those who operate clubs, run matches etc. and those that show up and shoot. There are those like me who want to grow our clubs, and increase memberships, we are constantly looking for ways to make it less intimidating to the new shooter. The shooter that shows up and shoots, rarely helps anyway, can we take them out of this thread? I have been to clubs where new shooters are shuned like lepers by the regular "shooters". No eye contact, cold shoulder, no assistance. Made to feel UNWELCOME. As an MD, you want the regular GM,M,A, shooters but some sure don't do much to help the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I notice a disparity in attitudes between those who operate clubs, run matches etc. and those that show up and shoot. There are those like me who want to grow our clubs, and increase memberships, we are constantly looking for ways to make it less intimidating to the new shooter. The shooter that shows up and shoots, rarely helps anyway, can we take them out of this thread? I have been to clubs where new shooters are shuned like lepers by the regular "shooters". No eye contact, cold shoulder, no assistance. Made to feel UNWELCOME. As an MD, you want the regular GM,M,A, shooters but some sure don't do much to help the sport. If you are seeing this level of disparity in these two 'groups' you identified, then that tells me the make-up of these clubs is the problem......not who is shooting what type of gun in a particular division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 my comments were written towards the previous 4 pages of posts. There is a disparity between those who want to grow their clubs and those who don't want their triggers messed with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 my comments were written towards the previous 4 pages of posts. There is a disparity between those who want to grow their clubs and those who don't want their triggers messed with. those 2 issues are completely separate. there are good people on both sides of the trigger issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 my comments were written towards the previous 4 pages of posts. There is a disparity between those who want to grow their clubs and those who don't want their triggers messed with. Don't presume to know what's in my heart, or what I might have done for this sport based on my opposition to a 3 lb trigger pull minimum for Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 two threads going here. (1)Personally I want a stock production division. NO MODs allowed. "Don't presume to know what's in my heart, or what I might have done for this sport based on my opposition to a 3 lb trigger pull minimum for Production." (2)I don't know nor care what is in your heart or what the revelancy it has on my OPINION that there are two camps at work, those who only want to shoot and those who want to grow the sport so we can shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Note: this is a reminder that you are on the Brian Enos Forum. Posting with respect is required. I've removed two posts from this thread that were straying too far. We can discuss, not bicker. Admin. -------------------------------- shootingchef, I believe you are mistaken. I can't speak for everybody, but I think most that are against changing the rules to add a trigger pull limit are also the worker-bees of the sport. I know I am one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 my comments were written towards the previous 4 pages of posts. There is a disparity between those who want to grow their clubs and those who don't want their triggers messed with. The trigger pull rule is a gamble that the number of departing USPSA members will be less than the number of new recruits gained. I think this is a fallacy because of the shear incongruity of the remaining Production division rules. How can we with a straight face allow: aftermarket slides, barrels, sights (including machine work to install), and frame checkering/stippling but declare <3 pound triggers illegal? I sure can't keep a straight face. How would a newbie view this set of rules? I guess the same way we view them, as silly and inconsistent. The obvious conclusion is that the members of the BoD that are driving this rule are interested in incrementally modifying the rules over the next decade to make Production division a purely stock gun division. The BoD isn't full of stupid folks, they must know the trigger rule is ridiculous in the face of the other allowed mods. I'm OK with a stock gun division, I won't shoot it (because I don't see how 10 pound stock triggers are fun), but I wouldn't oppose it. I refuse to support halfass measures to reach that point though, the transitions are long and hard on the membership and discontent will be sowed every 4 years. That isn't a way to grow the sport, it's a way to rip it apart a little at a time. So what do we gun owners do with incrementalist tactics after our long history of battling incrementalists in the political and legal arena? We don't budge an inch, because we know that every inch we back down is one we'll never get back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 shootingchef,I believe you are mistaken. I can't speak for everybody, but I think most that are against changing the rules to add a trigger pull limit are also the worker-bees of the sport. I know I am one of them. As a quick comparison: are you going to tell a hot rod enthusiast that likes to drag race on the weekends that he can cannot put a new super tuner chip or new forced cold air intake in his car after he's made a few runs with a stock setup and was unhappy with the results even if he did win heads up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Growing clubs has nothing to do with a minimum trigger pull. If you want to grow a club, then you have to follow the rules and be friendly toward the new shooters. It's an intimidating sport because in reality we know there are no excuses (it's all on the shooter) and we perform and show how prepared we are in front of a group of people, most of whom can trounce a new shooter. How new shooters are treated is about all we can hope to control and is 99% of what will keep them coming back. I don't know what the hell happened with this stupid rule book A project that should have entailed nothing more than removing ISPC language when there was a US exception has turned into a complete and total mess. Everyone with an idiotic opinion wants to reinvent the sport. I RO, score, and otherwise work matches for nothing because I enjoy being around like-minded individuals doing something fun. When the shootingchefs of the sport outnumber the pickle haters, then it may be time to dust off the golf clubs. My little 5' tall, 100 lb wife has been shooting for about 2 years. We trained for a few months and I dragged her out to local matches where she shot on the local "super squad" with me and a bunch of guys who she had never met. I have yet to hear her whine about anyone else's gun, any rules, or anything except shooters who don't help paste and maybe the port-a-john . My idea is to give up on attracting wusses who won't stay anyway and focus our attention on the women shooters who are our actual future. Most of us actually know a woman, and some of us even married one This is not a sport for everyone, and dumbing down the sport to try and make it for everyone will only result in disaster. Shooters who don't come back either can't handle the time and expense, or don't have the character to handle the sport. Most anything else is just a lame excuse for personal weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 OK...it is apparent that this is a hot button issue and it's not getting better. We don't need to call stuff stupid here...not half-assed, etc. We certainly don't need to talk about one another directly. Here are the rules. They are posted right at the top of this page. Due to incessant bickering typical of the Rules Forum, we've (Admin/Moderators) come close to deleting the Rules Forum altogether. (Several times.) We've decided to keep it (by a narrow margin), however, with this stipulation: No antagonistic tones will be tolerated. Please post respectfully or don't post at all. Threads or posts not following this spirit will be locked or deleted, and offenders will be warned or banned from posting. Please, for the life of the Rules Forum and the constructive input gained from it, participate appropriately. Thank you, benos This thread is CLOSED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts