George Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 I kinda' favor the 30 round max in Limited, 40 in Tactical and leave Open unlimited. This adds the measure of distinction I think is lacking in the divisions as they stand. BTW, Kurt, I am actually thinking of switching to Limited for a while (while I have still have some eyes left that is). I am consistently surprised at how few folk can hit anything with iron sights anymore. When I came up, over half the field at any given 3 gun match used iron sights and the long distance shots were taken and made with routine. Riflery as a true skill seems to be going the way of many of our eyes. When the few of us who can hit anything at distance with irons can't see well enough to use them anymore, that'll be it for the Limited division, folks ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory_k Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 need to limit open as well. it is just to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Be nice Rich!!! don't shoot the messenger, someone else suggested it, I just thought it was a good idea for separation among the divisions. Kurt, does bring up a good point, but I can't remember what it was!!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 Trapr, No chance of that. Love you guys (my Oklahoma and Texas brotherin') way too much. Heck, if I'd have known you were in San Antonio, I'd have been buggin' you guys while I was at Ft. Sam. The big thing, when Tactical Division was formed was that I saw it as a great way to bring in the guys from the old SOF matches, the guys from Tac-Irons in IMGA and also give our "aging" population of 3-Gunners a place to play with their limited guns and have optics. The problem was that there just isn't enough seperation between the divisions. Anyways. Hope y'all like the exercise since I think we can agree it's been long overdue to find out what the populous thinks (and it doesn't matter if they shoot 3-Gun or not) as it's a USPSA poll not a 3-Gun(ner) only poll. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 If you want separation between the rifle divisions, someone made the suggestion......Open-optic magnification or not, and as many as you want, Tac-red dot no magnification, one only, Ltd.-irons. That is what I call good separation, and then leave the magazine restrictions alone. Did I say that? That is what I was looking for. But keep the irons as backup for all, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Mick, hang on my han is thtuck in yer bak and i've got peany butter in my mouf. yeah irons as back up, thats the ticket!!! for all...........and primary for the, elite Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Mick, hang on my han is thtuck in yer bak and i've got peany butter in my mouf.yeah irons as back up, thats the ticket!!! for all...........and primary for the, elite Trapr Well said...(I think) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Rich, You need to update your mag selection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walangkatapat Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Why do we keep having these stupid discussions. Leave the rules alone. To damn many people with to much time spent "thinking" and not enough time at shooting. All this level the playing field BS next thing you know they won't want to keep score any more either. Just think of the savings to the new shooter no timer to buy, no ego to get crushed when the scores are posted. Are we as a group really stupid enough to actually believe that it is the gear and not the operator? Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 How ya going to enforce a new restriction? RO's got to count to 30? Get real. Mag length? Start up an industry to develope springs and followers to get 32-33 in a GI mag body. Fun new arms race. Not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Why do we keep having these stupid discussions. Leave the rules alone. To damn many people with to much time spent "thinking" and not enough time at shooting. All this level the playing field BS next thing you know they won't want to keep score any more either. Just think of the savings to the new shooter no timer to buy, no ego to get crushed when the scores are posted. Are we as a group really stupid enough to actually believe that it is the gear and not the operator? Good post. You are right that it is mostly the operator and not the equipment but good equipment has something to do with it. Most of the good operators know how to build and maintain their equipment so it doesn't fail when needed. I think the emphasis here was using what might be normal for the division compared to whatever their reality may be: In Tactical you may see SWAT or Military operators using non-magnafying dots with 30 rounds mags. That is the way they operate. (unless of course you are carrying the SAW!) I think folks just want to limit the equipment to what they associate the division should be for real world folks.. But this is a game. I'd go with 30 round mags and 1X dots for tactical, irons and 30 rounders for LTD, and whatever you want for OPEN.....If it doesn't change I wouldn't be disappointed, I'll still use 20 round mags as much as possible and a 1X dot because my 51 year old eyes don't see the sights well anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stubbicatt Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Leave the open type stuff for open division. Aside from the aspects of competition purely for competition's sake, the 100 round magazines deprive the sport of a part of "practical" shooting, namely magazine changes. I am a rank beginner, not even classified yet. My opinion is not from the background of experience, but rather of inexperience. For me at least, I shoot limited 10 and tactical because the exercise of the reload is a good thing to learn at my stage of development in this activity. My equipment choices are driven to some extent by my predisposition towards accuracy over speed, and I shoot a major caliber as a consequence. As I improve and begin to see the activity as a competition rather than a learning experience, I anticipate that my equipment needs will change to favor speed. At that time I will begin to examine participation in open class. I doubt that a rule allowing these 100 round magazines would change my approach to the activity in the short run, but to have a magazine limitation would not hurt the sport at all, and would encourage those who want to run in open class to do so, integrating the challenges of mag changes in the tactical division. Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 There is nothing challenging about changing a magazine . Push button, drop old mag, get new mag, put where old mag was. Lets stop and think about this. Most stages that would requier a mag change with a rifle (say around 34 rounds) will generally run around 28-35 seconds. Now lets take a really skilled mag changer at 1.5 seconds and an average ( lets level the plaing field, non practicer ) mag changer at 2.75 so we are looking at 1.25 seconds difference, OR 4% of a 28 second stage, or 3% of a 35 second stage. So let me ask this, WHY isn't everyone stacked up at 96% of the winner? "It just sounds good", or "it just makes sense" is somewhat akin to " let me set my beer down...now yall watch this"! Could someone tell me why you guys think that the guys winning these here matches CAN'T change a magazine?? If I want to change a lot of magazines I will shoot single stack/L-10. If I want to reload a lot I will shoot a shotgun, but the joy of shooting a carbine/rifle is found in the presision of hitting long range targets, or watching brass pour out of it like a mini-gun on a close hoser stage. IT IS NOT found in incesantly putting in a magazine! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GringoPerdido Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 ... or watching brass pour out of it like a mini-gun on a close hoser stage... KURTM +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Kurt, you never set your beer down...any self-respecting redneck can do whatever needs done while holding a beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 There is nothing challenging about changing a magazine . There is nothing challenging about NOT changing a magazine. No pushing a button. No getting the mag out. No getting the fresh mag. No getting it into the gun. (heck, maybe no need to carry an extra mag at all) No need to work a reload into solving the shooting problem. It is a skill. It should be tested in a field course when using "Limited" equipment. If the only test were to not screw it up...it should still be tested. 4% has decided many a shooting match. Who screwed up the least has decided many a shooting match. Heck, a huge example comes to mind (pardon this being a pistol example, but it just fits)... Last year, at the Limited (pistol) Nationals...Leatham, Tilley, and Sevigny are going into the final stage neck-and-neck. After 17 stages, they are all within something like 7 points of each other (give or take...I forget the math). All three screw something up on the final stage. Simple stuff. I think Tilley ran out of ammo, and had to eat a mike...Dave had a penalty...TGO forgot a target and had to come back for it (or something like that). Little stuff matters. Granted...3-gun is a lower hit factor game. But, it's more than just about accuracy...or, we'd all sit still and shoot at bullseyes, right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I still say the skill to be tested in rifle shooting is the accuracy. We have enough equipment distinction in classes already. Limited - Iron sights Tactical - One optic - you have to choose wisely because you must use it for up close hoser targests and the long range targets. Open - Two optics - one for long range accuracy the other for hoser targets. Seems pretty simple. No need for any new rules. If a course requires a mag change, so be it. Otherwise I am choosing to just concentrate on my acuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I still say the skill to be tested in rifle shooting is the accuracy. So, is that all you think ought to be tested? If a course requires a mag change, so be it. In USPSA, a field course is required to be "freestyle". You can't require a mag change...you have to build it into the course of fire somehow to compel a mag change. That is kinda hard to do with round counts such as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Payne Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Yes, that is what I am saying. As a 28 yr. LEO I can guarantee the only time I would be reloading my rifle after I had already shot 30 rounds at a hostile target, I would be behind a lot of cover and rethinking my tactics, knowing I screwed up somewhere. (also probably thinking "damn, I wish I had a beta-mag). I think that is the whole point. If we are trying to simulate real world scenarios, then we should have areas where time would stop so everyone could reload, then time starts again because you wouldn't be doing reloads "on the clock" in the real world. As it is, we are playing a game. We already have a lot of rules governing what we can and cannot do. To add another one just seems kind of stupid to me. All you would have to do is set up a course of fire that could be shot freestyle, allowing an area for a reload while moving from one shooting area to another. Those who want to limit themselves to 30 round mags could do their reloads without any great handicap in time vs anyone using a Beta-mag or other Hi-cap. Right? Then those who wish to run the Hi-cap mags could still do so. That way no one could cry foul and want another new rule added to the book. I just don't like the idea of seperating rifle divisions based on how many rounds their mag can hold. That is not where the main emphasis in rifle is in my opinion. My vote is for No New Rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Some things do requier 2 hands, such as holding the road flare and pouring the gas into the car. Now where is that flaming smilie face! Let me get this straight; Limited 30 rounds, and now when I add a single optic I can have 10 more rounds...does that mean optic shooters miss more?? I can see where you all are coming from, after all you all limited OPEN shotguns to 10 plus one so it only stands to reason that you would eventually want to limit EVERYTHING else. I guess you guys are dug into this like a tick on a hound so I quit! I have nothing more to say about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 It seems to me that if you want to do a reload on the clock, and that is a skill that YOU feel should be tested, then YOU should load enough rounds into YOUR mag, so as to require YOU to do a reload. Then those of us that don't feel the need to perform the reload can load whatever WE want into OUR mags, and shoot the course of fire. If you feel that you don't spend enough time on your reloading practice, and want to see what you can do one in while on the clock, then just DO IT, and leave the division alone. You can start a NEW division "the rifle reloaders", This is a game, we do not carry all of our gear on us when we shoot a course of fire, we do not have people shooting back at us, we do not climb out of APC's when we arrive at the start of the course of fire. No matter how hard you try, this is a game, and the rules are fine, jus the way they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Most stages that would requier a mag change with a rifle (say around 34 rounds) will generally run around 28-35 seconds. Now lets take a really skilled mag changer at 1.5 seconds and an average ( lets level the plaing field, non practicer ) mag changer at 2.75 so we are looking at 1.25 seconds difference, OR 4% of a 28 second stage, or 3% of a 35 second stage. So let me ask this, WHY isn't everyone stacked up at 96% of the winner? I don't see the need to test mag changes in field courses myself. Standards are best at that, you get a flat-footed dead-on the money time hack on what you can really do. The timeframe of a typical Standards, or Virginia Count stage will separate the wheat from the chaff nicely. Thats a real test IMO. Slamming an AR mag in while moving from one position to another, even if it slightly delays the transition, is no biggie as Kurt points out very properly with his math. Shaving time off your reload speed is only a big thing when you have to do it flat-footed, on the clock, in a short stage and against folks who can do it sub-2 seconds, shot to shot, on demand (I can nowadays). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 First, someone show Kurt how to spell "require"! I think we all are just thinking out loud (or on the web). I really don't want a rule change but don't wnt to buy a beta mag because some course designer will set up a COF and make me do a standing reload with my "little" mags to keep up with everyone else. Ok, so I'll buy a beta mag then...where and how much??? I went to a match where there was a COF where we had to run backwards to boxes/shooting postions and make reloads but the beta mag guys sure had us beat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Mick , Kurt already knows that he's "grammatically challenged" sometimes I think he does it on purpose. Beta C's...............Rguns, great prices and the NEW M1A beta as well. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Mick , Kurt already knows that he's "grammatically challenged" sometimes I think he does it on purpose. Beta C's...............Rguns, great prices and the NEW M1A beta as well. Trapr I didn't do well with Beta C-mags, any other sources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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