Smith And Wesson M&p9 Accuracy Problems

[BillGarlandJr]

Okay, I've read the posts about the M&P9 and how great they are shooting for everyone...so I went out and bought one. Till today I had not had an opportunity to really put it through its paces and see what it could do. I went out and did some familiarization fire with it a couple of times, and I was very pleased with the way the pistol felt and handled, and I had high hopes for its potential.

Today the weather was great and I had the day off so I went out to the range with the M&P9, and several loads of factory ammo, and some of my reloads as well. My goal was to get a good zero on the pistol and to shoot some groups with it to see what kind of accuracy potential it had. I have to say that some of the hope i had for the pistol diminished today based on the groups it was shooting. The best group I was able to shoot with the M&P9 was a little over 4 inches. The rest of the groups ranged from 5 to 10 inches. Out of 6 shots the pistol would put three or four within three inches and then there would be some flyers. Some of the flyers were high, some low, some left, and some right.

Here is a list of some of the loads I shot through the pistol:

WWB 115gr

Federal American Eagle 115gr

Remington Yellow Box 115gr.

147gr. Extreme over 3.2gr N320

147gr. Extreme over 4.5gr 3N37

124gr. Extreme over 4.2gr N320

The best of the factory loads was the Federal with an avg groups size of about 5 1/2 in.

The best of the reloads was the 147gr bullet loaded over the N320 with a group size of about 4 1/4 in

Three inches is about as large as I like to see my groups out of a pistol used for duty or competition. I'm curious as to what kind of accuracy other people are getting out of their M&P9s. I also have an M&P40 and it will shoot anything I feed it under three inches...so what gives with the 9mm?

I guess I should mention the groups were shot from 25 yards. I should also mention that my dad has an M&P9 as well and we got similar results out of it.

Ultimately I am looking to replace my aged GLock 17 with this pistol for IPSC, but till I can get some better accuracy out of it I am hard pressed to do so.

Thanks in advance for everyones info, advice, etc.

[ihatepickles]

I've seen OEM barrels with some crazy rifling, in one case there was only only 3 of 6 grooves cut, in another there was no rifling for the first 2" of the bore, lastly I've seen them without rifling at all. So, check the obvious mechanical issues.

How's the barrel lockup? How's the overall fit?

If you want more info, chrono some loads and see if that gives you any clues.

It sounds pretty odd that it does this with 2 different M&Ps. I don't expect .5" groups at 25 yards from a factory pistol but 2" is reasonable.

Edited February 1, 2007 by ihatepickles

[Chuck Anderson]

Give it to your dad and see what he can do with it. It's been so long since you shot a match ya probably forgot that the trigger is supposed to go straight back.

[Mickster]

The following is my post from last month in another M&P thread.

"I picked up my M&P9 last week, sandbagged at 25 yards the best I could get were 4" 5 shot groups. Most were around 5". I had my Beretta 92 and was using it to compare to. The 92 was getting 2" groups. Same ammo, same sandbags, same everything."

So I share your concern, especially about the flyers. 4 of the 5 shots would hover under 3" and 1 would send the group out to 5 or 6.

The rifling looks good. There's some up and down movement between the slide and frame at the front but is tight at the rear. I understand that is normal. When I push down on the front of the slide to tighten it to the frame the whole gun is nice and tight. No looseness between barrel and slide at the front or rear at all.

Could that little bit of movement of the slide to frame fit at the front be the problem?

[Nemo]

Shrek,

Was your shooting done offhand or rested? Just curious.

Thanks,

[DougCarden]

Couple of things come to mind. How accurate are these loads in other guns, and how well do you shoot them at 25 yds in other guns? Not a dig on you at all, but a valid question. Plated bullets are hard to get to shoot in some guns, and WWB isnt known for it accuracy at 25yds either.

A accuracy load that I know will shoot in any 9x19 is either 122lfp with 3.5 TG(OAL of 1.035), and a lead 147lfp with 2.9gr TG (OAL 1.130). You can substitute VV320 for TG, but back down .02 grains and chrono back up.....If you dont get circular groups of 2inches at 25yds with these loads then the gun may have issues, also check the crown of the gun for any burrs or rough edges.

Having said all that, When I got my XD 5in 9x19 back with a light trigger it was a bitch trying to shoot groups with it until I got used to the trigger and letting it go, instead of making the gun go off. I shot a .40 MP the other night, and was able to get bullets in the same hole at 10yds, didnt try any farther though. It took a while to get the feel of the trigger, which I like, but there is a learning curve, and I was shooting two Revos that night before shooting the MP.

One last thing. I would shoot groups at 7yds, 15yds, and 25yds. This will isolate if it is the gun, your technique, or the ammo. If the gun will go into one ragged hole at 7 and 15yds and then opens up 25....it could be you, but if the rounds consistently wont group at all distances then it may be the gun.

The cool thing is that you get to spend a lot of time with your gun putting rounds downrange, which will help you in the long run.

Hope some of this helps.

DougC

[Fireant]

I'll second what DougC said. Start at 7yds. and work out. My 25 yard groups always looked like a shotgun pattern from all of my other guns, open, limited, glocks, and a CZ. After getting used to an M&P I now have a group at 25 yards. These guns are not bullseye accurate, but my 147gr and 124gr reloads will all stay in the down zero zone of an IDPA target unsupported.

[ysued]

+1 DougC, Great post and you said exactly what I was thinking, great minds think alike !!

My load with a 147gr Rainier with TightGroup is Excellent!!

Facts:

1 The M&P is not a Bullseye gun

2 I'm not good enough at 25 yds to group anything that's why I use a Rest

3 You need to get used to the gun first

When we were doing out load development for our M&P's we first Chronoed 3 loads, it was a little Nippy outside 40 degrees, and they all did over 125 PF (rainier 147gr with TightGroup), after Chrono we tried to fid out the most accurate gun, no we didn't shoot at 25 Yds, why?? In most matches I go 25 Yd targets are few and far between, we dicided to test between 10 and 15 Yds. That is a more accurate range to where most IPSC Targets are placed at the great majority of matches I attend. BTW, the first time I tested my M&P I set up Bianchi Targets between 5-25 Yds in 5 Yd increments, just to see where i was hitting, but i was realistic from the Begining,THIS IS NOT A BULLSEYE GUN!! I could not expect a 1" Group at 25 Yds when you can only get that from a custom 1911 from a rest, I was off hand, with WWB and Remington Green Box UMC and just having fun.

Both of my M&P's are great shooters and now with the load we developed for it with Tight Group and Rainier 147 Gr Bullets is even more accurate than with the WWB I was shooting before.

BTW, this is just my experience with the 2 guns I own, this does not mean that the original poster doesn't have a real problem with his gun.

[tightloop]

The following is my post from last month in another M&P thread.

"I picked up my M&P9 last week, sandbagged at 25 yards the best I could get were 4" 5 shot groups. Most were around 5". I had my Beretta 92 and was using it to compare to. The 92 was getting 2" groups. Same ammo, same sandbags, same everything."

So I share your concern, especially about the flyers. 4 of the 5 shots would hover under 3" and 1 would send the group out to 5 or 6.

The rifling looks good. There's some up and down movement between the slide and frame at the front but is tight at the rear. I understand that is normal. When I push down on the front of the slide to tighten it to the frame the whole gun is nice and tight. No looseness between barrel and slide at the front or rear at all.

Could that little bit of movement of the slide to frame fit at the front be the problem?

It is the S&W gun to try to gain the military contract, what do you expect?....most of the troops are just glad the thing went bang...

[ysued]

It is the S&W gun to try to gain the military contract, what do you expect?....most of the troops are just glad the thing went bang...

Not this one, the 45 is!!

And the Two 9mm's I have are very accurate and reliable.

[Tolly]

My 9mm and .40 cal M&Ps will both shoot very good groups from a rest at 25yds if I do my part even with factory ammo such as WWB or UMC. One thing I did notice though was that it took me much longer to be able to shoot the M&Ps to their accuracy potential than it did with my 1911s, and I am pretty sure that is just the difference in the triggers. One thing I will be doing soon is sending them to Dan Burwell for his $50 trigger jobs.

[ysued]

One thing I will be doing soon is sending them to Dan Burwell for his $50 trigger jobs.

You will not regret doing that!! Dan did both of my M&P's, with fantastic results.

With the NRA Weight set, they break at a bit over 4lbs, that is just perfect for me.

Y

[cking]

They had some bad barrels, send it back and they will fix it.

[BillGarlandJr]

First let me say thanks for everyone's input on this matter.

We did try the same loads through two other pistols. One was my Glock 17 with the factory barrel, and the other was a GLock 34 with a BarSto barrel. All of the factory loads I mentioned before shot into groups between 2 and 3 inches at 25 yards out of the Glock 17, and were a bit tighter still out of the Glock 34. All groups were fired from sandbags.

As for the reloads, the 147gr load over N320 shot 2 1/2 to 3 inches out of the Glock 17. (Still at 25 yards) Out of the Glock 34 with the BarSto the groups were of a similar size. The 147gr load over 3N37 gave similar results out of both pistols. The 124gr. over N320 shot about 5 inches out of the GLock 17 and about 3 1/2 inches out of the Glock 34.

The groups I got from the M&P9 I am certain have something to do with the pistol, and not the shooter. I'm actually not a bad shot and if the pistol can shoot decent sized groups I usually can get good results from it. As far as getting used to the pistol....I also have an M&P40 that I was able to get groups of 2 to 3 inches at 25 yards first time out.

I agree with everyone who reminded me the M&P9 is not a bullseye pistol. It certainly is not, but neither is the Glock, and the Glock is a bit more accurate out of the box. For me accuracy is very important. That might have to do with my days in the USMC, or it may have to do with being taught how to shoot by my PPC Grandmaster Dad. Its been a couple of years since I shot a match outside the NW, so I don't know what kind of distance targets and steel are set elsewhere, but up here (in our section in particular) they have been known to stick some tagets out at around 50 yards. With those kinds of shooting challenges you have got to have a pistol that it capable of decent accuracy. For me decent accuracy is at least 3 inches at 25 yards.

I really like the M&P9. The way it handles and feels in my hand is superior to my Glocks, and I would really like it to replace my trusty old Glock17 for IPSC. But I can't afford to give up some of the points I would lose due to this pistol's lack of accuracy (Shooting against Lawman in club matches up here I need all the points I can get).

Thanks again for everyone's input....I think I'll start bugging S&W and see what they have to say about this.

One other bit of info: my M&P9 has a Burwell trigger job.

[Nemo]

Psst... '74...

Sell that one to Lawman and get a new one.

Hush...

[Chuck Anderson]

Psst... '74...

Sell that one to Lawman and get a new one.

Hush...

HEEEYYYY

[Keninaz]

I don't think this problem is limited to the M&P 9. I have a 3rd generation 5906 that does the exact same thing (can't shoot groups for $..t.). As a matter of fact, I was going to sell the 5906 and replace it with a M&P 9 until I read this thread. Now i'm thinking I better keep what I got.

Ken

[Tolly]

I guess I'm lucky, all three of my M&Ps are great shooters.

[ysued]

I guess I'm lucky, all three of my M&Ps are great shooters.

The 2 I have are great shooters!!

Y

[Mickster]

The 3 extra mags I ordered came in yesterday which brings my total up to 5. I'm not giving up on this gun. I like everything about it and want it to replace my Beretta and Glock for matches. It runs 100%, but 5" at 25 yards is just a bit too loose.

So far I've tried Win WB, Lawman and S&B 9mm 115fmj ammunition. I'll keep trying different factory ammo and if I get to the point where I'm certain it isn't the ammo, I'll see if I can order another barrel.

You guys that have good M&P9 shooters, what ammo are you using?

[Lee Bell]

Others have tried their hand at this, I'll toss in my $.02 worth.

I've purchased several new guns this year and have been surprised at some of the things I found:

All of them seem to have required more break in than I'm used to. I've had feeding problems, slide lock back problems and general accuaracy problems. Where I used to expect a gun to shoot well right out of the box, then expected it to shoot well after about 500 rounds, I no longer expect particularly good results until after 1,000 or more rounds.

What has really suprised me is the trouble I've had with sights. My Colt Gold Cup came with a broken front sight. I sent it back to Colt who replaced the sight, but didn't get it tight. After one trip to the range, I could wiggle it with my finger. I got a local gunsmith to fix it. One more trip to the range, and the rear sight was clearly not right. It got replaced at my expense too. Disgusted with Colt, I bought a Kimber, the Stainless Gold Match II sold out of their custom shop. It took more than 500 rounds to settle down, and now shoots nicely, but I had sight problems with it too. The locking screw for the rear dovetail sight worked loose, letting the sight move by as much as 1/16 of an inch, left to right. Needless to say, this is enough to keep it from shooting tight groups. I fixed this one myself.

The point of all this is that I'm finding unexpected problems with guns that should be ready to go pretty much right out of the box. Both the need to fire more rounds for break in than normal and problems with sights would explain the issues you're experiencing. Check the sights and give it some time. It will either work or it won't.

One more suggestion which may or may not have been mentioned. Take a look at the muzzle, looking for anything uneven or damaged. It doesn't take much wrong at the crown end of the barrel to blow consistency all the heck.

Lee

[Singlestack Wonder]

In regards to the M&P's accuracy, remember, they had to do something will all of those left over Sigma barrels..................

[Zerwas]

In regards to the M&P's accuracy, remember, they had to do something will all of those left over Sigma barrels..................

That is funny stuff there sparky!!!!

On a side note, a friend of mine has a rather strange situation with his M&P 40. He says the pistol he has is very accurate until he shoots around 75 rounds with it and the last 25 rounds are all over the place.

I explained to him this was probably a product of something he was doing, and not the guns fault. He followed that up with an experience at the range. He said he shot the pistol like he normally does, and around the 75 round mark it started happening again. He picked up a Springfield XD45 and then proceeded to print very tiny groups with it.

I re-explained it was probably something he was doing differently with the pistol at the end of his range session.

He asked me if perhaps it had anything to do with the pistol once the barrell heated up. I told him I didn't think so since the barrell would be just as warm at 40-50 rounds as it would at 75 rounds.

Long story longer, I'm meeting up with him tomorrow night and I'll take a stab at shooting it. I'll see if it does it with me as well.

He is shooting WWB 165gr FMJ out of it.

[Bryan W]

You guys that have good M&P9 shooters, what ammo are you using?

My personal M&P 9 will shoot just about any factory ammo decently - the best I've seen was with American Eagle 115 - the worst was with WWB, but still within 3" or so at 25. A friends M&P 9 won't shoot anything worth a crap. I shot groups with both of them back to back out to 50 yards using the same ammo -

[ysued]

I was under 2" at 25 Yds with WWB, but with my Reloads it got better!!

BTW, the Dan Burwell Trigger job did magic to my groups:D

That 40 with Groups getting loose after 75 rounds is just strange, please keep us posted on that one. My 9's work great past 75 Rounds and then some. I can't see the heat of 75 round make such a difference in the barrel.

Good luck on that one!!

Y