Divisions Into Sub-categories

[Flexmoney]

divisions into sub-categories...

Does everybody realize that these really aren't different?

You are still 'dividing' things out.

An upside is...we can say that, "we've reduced the divisions". Really though, all that would be done would be a shuffling around of things.

I see a lot more on the down-side of things:

- Any fully blown division that we make a category of another division would immediately become a second class citizen.

- Shooters in a category would be directly competing against the equipment of the parent division. (if we wanted that, we'd shoot heads-up...we don't, that is why we have divisions in the first place).

- We'd just be further confusing the new shooters (and many that already just shoot locally). Our sports seems complicated enough already, we throw more confusion into the mix?

- Lack of stability. I think we ought to have a really[i/] strong reason before we make any big changes that will upset the stability of our game.

[Jim Norman]

Well said.

I think that we can survive with 6 divisions if we want to. I think that the current 5 plus a re-vamped SS would answer the needs of just about everyone.

Oh and here is the real fly in the ointment: USPSA will or may be running IPSC Rules matches as well as USPSA rules matches!

Lets see

Open, USPSA and IPSC, similar, but different

Limited, USPSA only Close to, but not the same by a stretch as Standard

Limited-10, no IPSC equivilent

Production, USPSA and IPSC alike in name only.

Revolver. Similar

SS no IPSC Equivilent

Modified, no USPSA equivlent, shoot it in Open here.

So, we have our 6 divisions and we have IPSC's 5 divisions. Now that if I can still add and subtract makes 11 divisions in which a US shooter may be able to compete in.

If we eliminate one of the USPSA divisions, either L10 or SS (Merge would be a better term I suppose) we still have 10 possible divisions.

And of course we have Juniors, Ladies, Seniors and Super Seniors as well in all of them.

I think we are fine as we are. Keep our current 5 full divisions as divisions and let SS run its remaining two years as a provisional. Lets see where we are then, both in the mix and legally. Then we can decide what we need to do.

Jim

[Bill Nesbitt]

I remember when Revolver was a catagory. Usually there was only one person shooting it.

Now it has it's own division and it is growing.

[uscbigdawg]

I'm with you Kyle. Folks are getting caught up in "how can I win a trophy for 3rd D Class SS" instead of keeping the eye on the ball and that's improving as an overall shooter. Words were never said than, 'if you win your class, you didn't win the match'.

3 Divisions (4 in IPSC)

Open

Limited (tag categories for Limited 10 & Revo)

Production (tag category for SS w/ acknowledgement of major scoring but round restriction)

Modified (IPSC)

The intent of Production being to allow a more affordable means of entering into the sport and a seamless transition for IDPA shooters until they want to gear up and run in Limited.

If it was completely up to me, there'd be no classes, but I understand that they make it less intimidating for folks.

Rich

ETA: And I'd bring back Military & LE back as special categories. If Juniors, Ladies, Seniors and Super Seniors can have them, why not the boys in uniform?

Edited November 25, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[Chris Keen]

Thank heavens we dont still have LE & MIL!

[h4444]

I'm not particularly for changing things, but consider,,,,,there is a boatload of "specialty" matches and they seem to be serving us well.

Our club breaks down our matches along division lines based on a given weekend.

Everything on weekend X, factory guns weekend y (prod, revolver, L10, ss, and etc)

Consder in Iowa we ran a SS and REvolver back to back match and drew more revolver shooters than Nats.

These specialty matches get guys to drag out equipment they don't normally shoot,,,,,,,,under the right circumstances, we can get a LOT of guys to turn out for some good specialty matches...hem hem,,,,Iowa back to back.

H4444

[uscbigdawg]

Thank heavens we dont still have LE & MIL!

I can't even respond to this with all the explatives, age and gender references that would be used.

Rich

[Chris Keen]

I only meant that things will get more complicated in the near future if we have Divisions, catagories, sub-catagories, etc.

Lady, Senior, Super Senior, Junior are enough IMO.

Can I get an award for Veteran ??? JK

[uscbigdawg]

Get rid of ALL special categories then. This is 2006 after all.

Rich

[zhunter]

I have had enough of this WHOLE discussion.

I just want my SS Classifiers to be computed and counted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jim Norman]

Z,

I argued that point on day one.

We should have counted the classifiers and if the division did not survive, just drop them into L10.

I think that shooting for three years as a U, assuming you come into USPSA and only ever shoot SS, just seems wrong to me. It is not the way to attract and keep members.

Jim

[zhunter]

Z,

I argued that point on day one.

We should have counted the classifiers and if the division did not survive, just drop them into L10.

I think that shooting for three years as a U, assuming you come into USPSA and only ever shoot SS, just seems wrong to me. It is not the way to attract and keep members.

Jim

I agree, and for that matter, it will be hard to keep my interest too. I wanna see how I am progressing, and the classifier percentages is how I judge my progress. I have repeatedly said, I could care less if I beat my buddy, I want to improve, and the best way to judge is to do so by percentages nationwide.

Let's just pony up and calculate classifiers. SSD or PSSD does not matter, but give us scores

[Merlin Orr]

Z,

I argued that point on day one.

We should have counted the classifiers and if the division did not survive, just drop them into L10.

I think that shooting for three years as a U, assuming you come into USPSA and only ever shoot SS, just seems wrong to me. It is not the way to attract and keep members.

Jim

Got that right, Jim.

So we want to attract IDPA ESP & CDP shooters and get them to crossover and shoot USPSA....? While waiting 3 years to become classified... Yea... don't think most of us are that patient.

[Jon Merricks]

I only meant that things will get more complicated in the near future if we have Divisions, catagories, sub-catagories, etc.

Lady, Senior, Super Senior, Junior are enough IMO.

Can I get an award for Veteran ??? JK

Have you ever ran stats or a match? Stats is the only area that is effected by it. Having ran both I know that it is no more complicated with the use of the scoring program that we have now.

[Chris Keen]

:blink:

Yes John, been there ....... done that!

Edited November 25, 2006 by CHRIS KEEN

[Flexmoney]

It is complicated to the shooters that are new, or only shoot the one or two local USPSA matches a month.

They flounder trying to figure this stuff out...and don't come back.

The one big thing I keep coming back to (especially when talking to my AD from my position as Section Coordinator) is to make it easy for me to recruit new shooters.

If we don't get new shooters, then we don't get new members. If we don't get new members, then we don't get new RO's. If we don't get new RO's...stats people...match directors...set-up help...stage designers...

It's hard enough to get a newbie to show up. When they do, we need the system to be setup so that they don't get turned off (all the while respecting the competitive atmosphere of a fun and safe match).

[Nemo]

I'm with you Kyle...

3 Divisions (4 in IPSC)

Open

Limited (tag categories for Limited 10 & Revo)

Production (tag category for SS w/ acknowledgement of major scoring but round restriction)

Modified (IPSC)

Let's agree to disagree on this one, Rich. Leave Revolver (and Ltd-10 for that matter) alone. The equipment is different enough to warrant a division.

The intent of Production being to allow a more affordable means of entering into the sport and a seamless transition for IDPA shooters until they want to gear up and run in Limited.

Rich

Is that intent? Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[Viggen]

Thank heavens we dont still have LE & MIL!

I can't even respond to this with all the explatives, age and gender references that would be used.

Rich

This is a discussion about Divisions, not a thread about political beliefs, lighten up.

MIL and LE members fit nicely into the current structure and more than likely most would rather be top in the Division or Overall than a special setaside category.

[boo radley]

Things like "Junior" and "Female" reflect physical categories of contestants and not career choices.

I can understand the distinction. Otherwise...Would, for example, Blackwater Security contractors get to shoot as MIL? Or, why LEO and not First Responders, or fire-fighters?

[tightloop]

I only meant that things will get more complicated in the near future if we have Divisions, catagories, sub-catagories, etc.

Lady, Senior, Super Senior, Junior are enough IMO.

Can I get an award for Veteran ??? JK

The way it is going...you can get an award just for showing up.....

[Jim Norman]

Really?!?!

Division Winner, 5

Class Winner, 3

2nd in class, 8

3rd in class, 15

Senior, Junior, Lady, 5, just like a division

Just show up, I don't think so

We often have shooters finish 2nd in a Division, but win nothing since there are not enough people in their Class. Example, M wins, A is second and third, forth is a B at 15% lower, only the two A's but 8 B's. We pay Match winner and the top two B shooters, the A's walk away with nothing.

Nope, therte has to be enough participation to have awards. And yes, we have paid class winners and no division winner, only 4 in divsion, but 3 B shooters. and we have paid a Division winner, and no class winners. Only 2 in each of 5 classes plus the match winner and maybe a lot of "U: shooters.

Not all that uncommon.

Jim